{NB: I may not be heard from for a while — don't worry! The kitchen renovation proceeds apace, and I may just be off kilter enough to have to miss a few newsletters. I will probably be able to put up a few posts on Instagram, though! I think I will put the “Corners” there — I don't have room here today!}
When Discipline is Not Exactly the Issue
The problem with writing about disciplining children is that you have to assume certain things.
Sometimes those things, which have to do with indefinable insights into children's minds — and one's own, are not readily assumable.
So I just want to put a note here about that situation, which I have encountered a lot over the years, where the children aren't exactly undisciplined, but somehow a lot of energy is expended keeping them from melting down, blowing up, or otherwise making life difficult with tears and outright bad behavior.*
*Sometimes this difficulty is due to past trauma of their own, the parents'. I urge them to pray about this, because having had a difficult upbringing of one's own is something to overcome in order to do right by one's own children. Sometimes parents can be afraid to act rightly, because they fear the unpleasantness that follows — it makes them feel like failures. I have a quote from Scripture for them, if this is their issue, at the end of this little post.
Not occasionally, which happens in the best of families, but all the time. If you feel like you have to be on high alert at all times lest your young ones, or one in particular, just totally loses it — that your child somehow depends on you for his center of gravity in a way that you sense other children do not, this post is for you. It's an outline, an indication — it will require you to think and pray.
In this case — the case where your family life with young children feels like keeping many, many balls, emotionally speaking, up in the air at all times, and possibly also navigating your spouse's* fragility as well, or, to throw in another metaphor, the carefully constructed structure will come crashing down — let's put a pin in “discipline” for a minute. I say this as someone who has written so much about discipline and considers it extremely important. You know that. Just click on that category or check out the sections in my book…
*(I say spouse because unlike most of my posts, I really am writing this for both father and mother. The dynamic that causes this situation is a complicated one in which each spouse has to make an effort for the other, as well as for the children.)
Right now I have two things for you to think about.
Situational Awareness
The first thing is this: instead of thinking “I can't get my kids to be disciplined,” consider helping them, every day, to have ever more situational awareness. As is age appropriate, of course.
When your eight-month-old starts slapping you in the face or pulling your hair, as they do, don't just manage the behavior. Say, “Oh, that hurts Mama! Don't pull my hair. Be gentle.” “We don't slap Mommy! Give me a nice pat” — and take his little hand and stroke your cheek with it. Then stroke his cheek with your hand.
When your two-year-old bangs his plate on the table, say, “Hey! That bothers your Mom; it's too noisy.” As you take the plate away. The point is to direct his attention to someone else and that person's needs. When your four-year-old runs through the door ahead of your wife, sometimes you can say, “Please hold the door for Mama!” (Not always, because it's okay for children to be heedless; they are children. But little by little, they should become aware that others exist.)
Call their attention to the trees, the birds, the street, the sky. Have them watch the people and their funny or odd ways. Remark on the likelihood that they are in pain, or fairly spry for their age.
When I was a little girl, my Egyptian father and stepmother loved to entertain. They made a point of having the children be present to greet and shake hands (actually, Egyptians are great kissers-on-both-cheeks, and huggers), take coats, pass plates of hors d'oeuvres, napkins, and drinks, and show the way to the bathroom. In this way, I became aware that others are happy to be served and that guests mean a suspension of everyday activity.
Do you get the idea? Your children may feel shy, awkward, and clingy because, well, they have that personality and maybe habit, but also, they simply have not been taught to attend to others' needs, gradually, in an age-appropriate way.
Instead, the attention is on them, and that is always difficult. It's much harder to keep it together when someone is focusing on you, but you have no idea what to say and do, than to be given a task, however small. A six-year-old taking someone's plate for the pot luck is more confident than one wondering why you are not paying attention to her.
Self Control
The second thing is to insist that your children, on a regular basis, wait and also do or endure things that are not comfortable.
This is good practice. Since there are many times in life when we just must wait and/or accept not being perfectly comfortable, it's best to have practice beforehand so we are not caught unawares and betrayed into a sort of outraged despair, as of a four-year-old.
When your child comes running in yelling at you because he is so thirsty, it is almost never an emergency. Believe me, I too panic at the thought of a helpless five-year-old dying of thirst, but the truth is, there is almost certainly no need for shouting and it may even be the case that a few moments can pass without danger. The child could even get his drink of water himself…
In my father's Egyptian culture, children bring drinks of water to adults, not vice versa, as respect for one's elders is a big feature. We want to express our care for our children, but the balance to be sought is to give them confidence in being capable of helping themselves as well as showing respect.
Since it's a good idea that children arrive at the dinner table quite hungry, it will happen almost every day that they will be dying of hunger, just before dinner. That is undoubtedly very sad. But the best thing you can do is to ask this child to wait. Not right there, next to the tantalizing food that will drive her to distraction, but elsewhere, either finishing chores or reading a book. (Offering a snack then and there of course totally undermines dinner.)
You can also teach the child who has the habit of blasting in at 5:15 (when supper is at 5:30) with a wail of “I'M SO HUNGRY” instead to approach you politely with a cheerful, “How can I help you, Mama?”
When it's mealtime, gather them, look them over, have them sit, and say Grace (Dad leading). Go here for strategies. Dinner is a good time to practice hierarchical living and pack behavior (by which I mean there is an alpha pair — mother and father — and the betas need to be betas and not run the show). Ten minutes is not too much to ask of anyone over the age of two, most of the time.
Keep your calm grasp of the meal-time scenario even when guests are present. If it makes you nervous, feed the children beforehand. They can join to sit quietly for ten minutes if they like and are not disruptive.
As you walk into a store with them, mention that “we are going into the store now” and “we want to be sure not to bump into people or be too loud.” “Oh, that lady needs a hand with that bag. Can you help her?” “Let's let this gentleman go first. He only has a few things.” A pep talk in the car is a good idea. Let them know what the consequences are for not behaving, and be willing to leave in order to administer said consequences.
If you are promising a treat — and Auntie Leila is not above bribery, having realized early on the power to modify behavior of something rather modest in absolute terms, where judicious deprivation has been practiced in that area — don't hesitate to skip it if it's not been earned.
Also be sure to condition the treat on no requests for any other treats. It's not necessary to go through a store having to spend most of the time explaining why you are not buying every single thing. Simply tell them that if they ask for anything, they will not get a treat at the end. Instead, teach them to say, “That looks interesting,” or “I like that kind of thing.” Seeing something you like does not mean wanting it, much less getting it. You can simply acknowledge its existence!
A party is not the time for a child to corral you with demands for stories and other one-on-one activities. He has to learn that his world will not fall apart if you aren't directly paying attention to him at all times, and the only way for him to learn this is to be asked to do it. (As a guest in someone else's home, your child should be encouraged to make friends with the other children and run along with them. If he needs to be with you, then he can sit beside you quietly, or on your lap without mangling you; he must not interfere with your conversation more than absolutely necessary. It should be brought home to him that he would have more fun playing!)
Once having attended to guests' needs in the way described above (passing trays and so on), the children can and should be dismissed. They can play if it's early; they can go to bed, having already been fed, if it's late. If an adult shows interest in them, they can linger politely, but you, the hosts, should not let that go on too long. It's good for children to understand that parents have other things to attend to — that they, the children, are not, at that moment, the center of anyone's attention. When they experience it, that's when they will learn that they can still be happy!
This is self control. As I have said before, all of life comes down to learning self control! It's not that your child needs a spanking for these behaviors, though he may; it's that he needs to believe that you not only do not accept them, you provide other behaviors for him to implement, behaviors that are more pleasant for all.
He will learn the self control necessary for every eventuality if his parents have confidence that he will survive, and if he is encouraged (even if very small) to look around, observe, and attend to whatever needs attending to.
A great thing about the Egyptian culture I grew up with in my father's house is the reliance on ritual, so sadly lacking in our own society. Greetings are extensive and follow a script. The more you offer your children these scripts, the more able they will be to overcome the awkwardness and, frankly, intolerable burden of spontaneity and direct contact. For us in our less structured condition, “Hello Mrs. Fantasia, how do you do; may I take your bag/coat/dog,” if you know beforehand that it's expected of you, smooths the way.
Don't be afraid to coach your children up to the moment of reckoning. “They are coming. I want you to open the door and smile, because I am nursing your sister. If you don't — if you act the way you did the last time, with that naughty whining and begging for snacks, you will be sent to your room. I am counting on you for hospitality.” “When they are here, don't ask me to read you a book/go outside with you by yourself, go into another room. We have lots of time for those things when we don't have guests. When people are here, we want to help them to feel happy that they have come. Will you help me do that? I am going to need someone to pass the nuts and to get things when it's time to set the table. Here, take this bag of trash out to the garage while we get ready.”
But when the moment comes, let them sink or swim. Afterwards you can say something like “Good work helping our neighbor, she was really staggering under those beetroots; next time I want you to say ‘Miss Prism,‘ not ‘her,‘ because that is really not polite.” At the time, let it go (unless it's a banishing offense, as warned, and then you will have to make do with an “excuse me, Miss Prism, while I just take little Abysma to her room for a moment”). Too bad if Miss Prism judges you; your loyalty is to your child, not to her.
A Last Word to Fathers:
An occasional sharp but deep-voiced word to your offspring to sit still, answer politely, stop talking, stand up, go do it now, finish that bite, answer your mother respectfully, and go stand in the corner for four minutes, are needed from you. Don't respond to them when they interrupt, and encourage your wife likewise. Saying, “Don't interrupt, what is it?” is not effective… make them wait.
Your wife is drowning having to manage behaviors and often to appease you, and even if she gets nervous when you abruptly correct, you must. (Wives, let your husbands administer the occasional smackdown, little or big.)
Listen to what she is saying; don't talk over her while she's trying to handle the children, but do lay down the law with them when the opportunity arises. Notice if you are a talkative person. You may not be observing, in silence, what you need to observe in order to lead your family to peace. Parents need situational awareness and self control too, and this is how we get those virtues!
Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice. ~ Hebrews 12:11
My grandson Patrick on the day of his First Holy Communion!
bits & pieces
- Lockdown Nostalgia — an unacceptable exercise in privilege
- Are these lambs for real?? The cuteness is killing me, I'm dead
- And older review by Daniel Mahoney of a book by Roger Scruton.
from the archives
- Here's an older bits & pieces post with super cute fox mittens I made, plus some links that are still of interest, including one to a supplement for those who suffer from migraines. The active ingredient is feverfew, which is not difficult to grow! I have a nice big patch in my herb garden.
- 9 Hospitality Thoughts
liturgical living
St. Bernadine and St. Mary, Queen of Apostles today! And of course we are now in the Ascension time, getting ready for Pentecost. So many opportunities for prayer and uniting ourselves in the liturgical year!
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My book, The Summa Domestica: Order and Wonder in Family Life is available now from Sophia Press! All the thoughts from this blog collected into three volumes, beautifully presented with illustrations from Deirdre, an index in each volume, and ribbons!
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Marybeth says
I would love to know how to handle some of this behavior when we have guests (grandparents) who encourage it, making the children the center of attention at all times. They are very loving, and the children eat up the attention until they somehow cannot function without Grandma. And Grandma allows herself to be told which child she will be sitting next to at dinner, and at breakfast, etc. Grandpa is, meanwhile, roughhousing so loudly in the next room, that no one can hear it is dinner time, and so on. If I correct the children, the grandparents say, “Oh, it’s all right.” If I excuse myself to deal with an offending child in private, things become very awkward, as if I had rebuked the grandparents themselves. This goes on for four or five days, until they leave. The impertinence and the neediness drive me crazy. When we don’t have guests, the children play with each other just fine.
Leila says
Of course, it’s wonderful for each child to have SOME time and SOME one to give him full attention! That’s what grandparents are for! Children who are so neglected by their parents (obviously not, but that’s how they feel!) delight in having Grandma do just as she is told and consider it great fun.
Just use the same idea — but with the grandparents — to ground everyone back to awareness. “Okay, Grandma, I need you in the kitchen to help me figure out what Dad needs; Punctilia, you be getting your table chore done… ”
“Dad [to your father] — can you bring that miscreant over here and see what [your husband] wants for a beer… ”
And so on.
Let the kids have their attention, but still be the alpha. If you do it with humor, it will fly. If not, oh well!
Rachel Allison says
You are SO good at this. What a wonderful solution!
Sarah says
We’ve been there too. My sons played horsie on grandmother’s back! I wasn’t there, but we talked about it afterwards with the boys. “Don’t do that. You’ll hurt her.” I think it’s hard with occasional visits rather than people who get to see the rascals in action repeatedly. We coach kids beforehand, call kids to another room for conversations and consequences, and try to set the atmosphere of being a team with the grandparents together. However, there were plenty of times when my meltdown kid just legit lost it anyway, rather spectacularly, and we had to just leave or take him on a walk for a bit. Some conversations in quiet moments with grandparents helped. “I am having trouble navigating this behavior with son. I could use your help. Can we try X together?” I will say that time helped, and lots of just keeping enough law and order so they know they’ll be held accountable by you eventually. We’re still in the thick of it, but eventual private consequences anyway do work for us. Hugs!
Sarah says
Auntie Leila, so much better than anything I’ve thought of! Thanks! I’m still reeling from the fist fights breaking out in front of horrified grandparents, so I forget the smaller stuff.
Sarah says
Auntie Leila,
I just love your hospitality notes! Thank you. We need them. We’ve just started being the inadvertent hub for neighborhood children in the afternoon after school, our five boys plus the kids next to us in most directions. Goodness! Hospitality is on my mind. Welcoming house, welcoming children, still getting dinner on table and kids in bed in a timely way. I’m reading lots of your posts!
Catrina Ryan says
Thank you so much Leila!! This is exactly the kind of post that has transformed my life and hence my family’s life into something beautiful and peaceful and orderly.
Pam says
Re. Interrupting- a CGS friend shared the touch on the shoulder technique. Your child may come up next to you, not in front of you (!), & tap your shoulder. You should reach out & cover their hand w/ your own. The child’s tap let’s you know they have something to tell you. Your covering their hand let’s them know you are finding a break in the conversation to speak to them.
Leila says
Oh, I can’t tell you how much I canNOT stand this technique! It makes me insane.
I can remember as a child just having no clue what my parents meant by “wait for a pause” because, I think, I was obviously not listening to what they were saying, so I had no idea whether or not they were pausing!
But I learned. Eventually they learn. They have to have situational awareness and that takes time, but this is how you learn it.
Parents should also have awareness that if they are on a long rant, there will likely never be a pause, so they have to stop pretty soon and answer. As a guest or interlocutor (and likely ranter), I take it upon myself to come to the end of a sentence and pause so the child can be answered.
I think the child needs to learn to wait. Putting his hand on your shoulder doesn’t quite teach that… anyway, it’s something I dislike very much.
Yeva says
I disagree. I have seen this in action and it works so beautifully. It shows the child that you are still connected to them and aware of their needs but also they have to trust you and wait. You are communicating physically so they can feel more peaceful and heard. And you can interrupt the conversation more gracefully. It’s very pleasant for everyone involved.
Leila says
But it’s not actually something that adults do. It’s not a socially acceptable thing to do. Therefore, you will have to retrain or correct the child at a later date.
Gretchen McPherson says
Leila, do you suggest that the child just stand by you without touching, while they wait? I can imagine that some (less aware or talkative) parents might need the touch themselves. I have experienced many times when a child approaches his parent with whom I am talking, and waits politely — I don’t remember if they were touching — and I notice him and pause myself, or look at the child, which seems to give the parent grace to attend long enough to answer a question, etc., and then (sometimes) we go back to our conversation.
Leila says
As I say, the adults also need to work on situational awareness.
Personally, I just can’t stand little tugs and so on. I was always taught that it’s rude to do that! And it certainly annoys me. I would rather have the child either wait patiently (and find out within himself that it’s not worth it) or say, “Excuse me, Tommy is trying to chop Suzie’s head off” (eg it’s important enough to speak up, and if it really is that important, I would also overcome my dislike of a tap on the shoulder, if that’s what it took to get my attention!).
Obviously this is a personal preference. I’m not laying down the law. But if a child (eg in the Atrium) comes up to me and touches me, I say, “Just say excuse me at a pause unless someone is bleeding.” Again, if I were trying to interrupt your conversation, I would probably not tap you on the shoulder.
There’s also something about coming up obliquely to a person and touching their shoulder to get attention that I find counter-productive in the long run. The normal thing is to step into the person’s line of vision — catch their eye — and then say something pertinent. We do need to teach children this skill.
Yes to the other adult noticing and pausing so the parent can respond.
Carol says
Great advice! We were pretty good at this when the kids were little, but I think they could use a refresher when their friends come with parents. They all tend to stand in the doorway and chat. Good reminder to me to give them a heads up before the next gathering of families.
Lock down nostalgia is the epitome of self centeredness! Funny, it also reminded me of my elementary school days when I longed to be sick so I could stay home from school! As grown-ups, though, we shouldn’t need government mandates to force us to slow down and focus on what is important—especially parents!
Leila says
Yes!
But it’s worse than wanting a sick day. It’s deliberately ignoring the very real harms that persist to this day, because they couldn’t just slow their own pace down (despite having all the resources to do so).
I thought the substack was very good about making this point, extensively. We really cannot forget.
Mignon says
Leila, that’s an interesting take on the “hand on the shoulder” thing that had not occurred to me. I have friends who use that technique, but I have another friend who doesn’t. Her kids just stand there quietly until she turns to them. The child’s presence in the midst of adult conversation, just standing there with eyes gazing upon the parent, is obtrusive enough– at least for an attentive parent!! But I know often adults will just keep on gabbing and gabbing with no end in sigh (I am sometimes guilty of this too!) which is trying on the most patient, let alone a poor kid who just wants to know if he can get a snack or get down a game for his friend or listen to an audiobook or whatever.
I wanted to comment on that Covid Nostalgia article, too. Reading through the whole thing, I think the author is spot on concerning the cluelessness of the nostalgic one who misses the lockdown. But I think she misses something: that author does not really miss the lock-down, per se. She misses the sadly unique experience of being home— and the same goes for the kids. For some of these nostalgic people, I imagine it was a novel experience to sit down and eat dinner together as a family, or to take time to be together or putter around the home or whatever. It is a sad commentary on the demise of domesticity in culture and the place of the woman in the home.
Leila says
It’s true, the original author is pining for something she had no idea existed until it was forced on her. But as a commenter said, it’s not okay for her to be so clueless about what was going on during that time that she was having this epiphany and cozy bonding.
About the child waiting, parents have to practice… self control! It’s self control all around! Stop talking and answer your child! Some parents only respond when the child finally yells, “MOM” — which of course, is a new bad habit! We all have to have more awareness…
Lisa G. says
Those sheep!! They almost look like they don’t have faces, which for some reason, makes them cuter. And the black socks! Oh, by the way, I’ve been reading God’s Hotel, and how fantastic it is! Everyone should read it, really, at least those in the medical field. Especially younger people, who only know how it is now. I bought it when you recommended it, and only recently picked it up.
Leila says
Yes! Sheep — like little stuffed fantasy sheep dolls! God’s Hotel — a MUST READ!!
Ellen says
I read God’s Hotel too and found it so insightful. My mom was a nurse in the 60s and said that was still how it was for her in a hospital mostly run by nuns. She worked in a missionary hospital too in the Caribbean and it also had a more human pace. She quit nursing when she had a baby, and also when paperwork began to overtake real nursing. Thank you for the stellar recommendation. I couldn’t remember where i heard of this book!
Emily says
Auntie Leila,
I just came across a book title today that might interest you: Uncommon Kitchens. It is being released this month, so I have not read it. But it strikes me that the title might align with your vision for not having a cookie-cutter/boring kitchen. You can find out more here:
https://sophiedonelson.com/uncommon-kitchens/
Best,
Emily
Laura says
Thank you for these words of wisdom!
I could use some advice on how to handle a habit I’m bothered by in my two older children. Several times throughout the day they will ask me “when can we…?” about various things. “When can you buy me a new bathing suit?” “When can we paint nails?” “When can we go swimming?” I don’t love this and I mostly don’t know the answer to the question (and sometimes the answer is “maybe never!”) They aren’t exactly whining for the thing asked, even when I say no, but somehow these questions really bother me. Maybe they seem ungrateful? I would love to hear your thoughts!
Leila says
My mom always said, “We’ll see” and it took me a while to figure out that… we would NOT see LOL
If you spend a week stopping them short and saying something like, “this question is a bad habit. Don’t nag! We can schedule something in if you say, ‘Mom, can we make a time for manicures’ but obviously now is not the time. Come help me fold this laundry.” (Laundry folding time is a good opportunity to make plans, by the way!)
For this to be effective, Mom has to admit to herself that she is putting off answers and schedules. Decide when the time is that you want to do these things and — that is that!
Nicole says
This sometimes happens here too, and I think the worst part is that I allow them to do the nagging enough times that I get so impatient I snap. Probably better to nip it in the bud to protect them from my wrath! One idea I’ve heard is to tell them to write it down on a list or a sticky note (or if they’re too little, do it for them or have them draw it). For some reason, this action does seem to give them a sense of “we’re doing something about it” rather than the horrible “We’ll see…” aka “I’m not really listening to you….” lol! Sometimes, depending on the age of the kid or the thing they’re asking, that’s actually all they need, and the actual event or desired item never even comes up again! If it does, then yes, we need to talk to them with a schedule in hand, and take the request seriously, if it’s a legitimate request we can accommodate.
I also try to let them know that there are certain times of day when they really can’t ask me about future events, because I’m so overwhelmed, e.g. I’m cooking dinner, changing a diaper, etc. I think this is the situational awareness thing. We try to say something like, “This is not a good time because I’m right in the middle of something I can’t stop! I can’t give you my full attention. Go write it down and I’ll let you know a better time, (or we tell them when that time would be).” At least, this is what I aim to say, rather than the snapping! The older kids have gotten better about not poking the bear when the bear is making dinner during the witching hour.
Melisa says
Laura,
My thoughts on how we’ve handled similar things…
We make a family ‘bucket list’ together and put it on the fridge. It doesn’t have to involve complicated/expensive things, though it can depending on a family’s resources. One of our summer bucket lists included the following: swimming, getting ice cream, going to nature center, going to the zoo, going to an old-fashioned car show, science museum visit, going camping, etc. It gives everyone input, and then mom and dad can decide if/when to put these things on the calendar, and then the children can be shown when these things are, so they can count the days and have something to look forward to. (My children like to have their own calendars with special days on them so they know what to expect. They also like to draw pictures on those days and decorate them. For instance, a sibling’s birthday might have balloons/cake/presents they’ve drawn on it.)
Another thing we’ve done is take our children on ‘outings’. It can be as simple as a mother/daughter date at a coffee shop, bringing games or drawing/coloring supplies. That way each child gets some intentional one on one time with each parent. Just this last Saturday, my husband took our youngest son to a local park and they did archery together. This could even involve doing something together at home – a craft, a game, baking something, etc.
One thing I’ve encountered lately is our children asking us to move. My husband and I say aloud sometimes that we’d like to move out into the country, where we can have more space, chickens, etc. While that is something that is a dream for us, we are both overwhelmed as to how to actually MAKE that happen, as there are so many steps between our reality and our dream. So sometimes, when one of our children asks this, I’ll say that I’d like to move, too, That I’d like a house with a mudroom, or some other feature we currently don’t have. Then I might ask them what they dream of. Would they like a tree house? Would they like their own bedroom? Then we just dream and imagine together. The child/children doesn’t actually have to have the thing they’d like, sometimes they just want to be heard and express a wish. Don’t we also want the same for ourselves?
I don’t have it all figured out by any means, but these are some things I’ve found helpful with our 8 children. (I still have struggles with an autistic son who once he gets something on his mind, will not drop it, so that sometimes drives me nuts!)
Blessings!
Melisa
Mrs. T says
Excellent advice, Auntie Leila, truly. Some of it I learned late. You really have to be on top of your game when child after a child is born in quick succession! But it is worth the consistency, the follow through. Pleasant teenagers are a blessing.
I do agree with you on children not being the center of attention. It turns them into nervous wrecks! I remember being allowed to sit at the dinner table with guests after the children had runoff, because I sat quietly and listened, rarely giving a word. I learned a lot in those conversations and still respect those adults to this day.
One thing I am noticing is the obvious lack of early on discipline/manners in teenagers. My oldest son’s friends will come by in the afternoon still in their pajamas, unscrubbed and a general mess. The thing is, I can tell they feel a bit uncomfortable about it when they enter our home because they hang their head and avoid my gaze! It’s as if no one taught them different. I gently joked with one the other day, that by 1:00 pm, he should be dressed! He went home and changed.
We had another 8 year old neighborhood child, who walked in during dinner and loudly proclaimed he didn’t want to be my son’s friend anymore. He gave a false reason (a silly lie about something that never happened) and was generally loud and disruptive. My husband sternly turned him away and told him to leave. I thought it was a bit harsh at first, but I kept quiet. I’m glad I did, we haven’t had any issues with that boy since. My husband understood how to handle him efficiently.
I also like the idea of redirecting the child’s behavior in concern for others. I need to do this vs just “stop it!”. It gives a reason without over explaining. Too much talking is also a detriment. I get tired of hearing my own voice! I’m sure the children do, too.
As far as grandparents impeding discipline or encouraging poor behavior, I do have some advice. My MIL has lived with us for many years and unfortunately has been a culprit in this area. We would discipline a continuously difficult child, he would give a sob story to his nana, who in turn would by him a treat or agree with him mom and day were mean and bullies. You can imagine the discord this has sown over the years. We are still dealing with some of the after effects in this teenager. If I could give one advice, NIP IT IN THE BUD IMMEDIATELY. The father MUST step in and put an end to this behavior, using whatever means necessary. We learned the hard way.
Cirelo says
I can’t believe the audacity of the intentional undermining of the parents. We’ve seen this a lot and it is mind boggling because I didn’t experience my grandparents acting this way! My grandparents on all sides were exceptionally respectful of my parents authority. Even though there were strong political and religious differences. My husband and I constantly feel undermined in bizarre ways. It makes me feel like our parents are all really immature. I have a strong sense of duty and respect towards our parents that doesn’t seem reciprocated.
Mrs. T says
I understand what you mean. My own parents NEVER over step mine or my husband’s authority, however living with an in law does create a complex dynamic. This doesn’t excuse the undermining, though. It is incredibly bizarre, considering my grandparents on either side never over stepped my parent’s authority or sided with us children. They just didn’t. And you know what? It gave me a sense of security that a child should rightly have.
Leila says
Yes, when grandparents live with the family, they have to abide by the rules. It’s one thing to have visiting grandparents spoil and get “bossed” around by the kids. It’s another for them to undermine daily life. (Of course, the visiting and spoiling is not undermining — it’s just a sort of suspension of the rules. If Grandma says you can have another cookie, it’s just a treat. Very different from if she’s there every day giving you lots of cookies!)
Nipping in the bud is very important.
When they are visiting, you can just “deflect” them as I suggested. But when they live there, they need to subside. The truth is, grandparents who live with the family have a special role of being able to have the time to do so many quiet things with the children that the parents are too busy for, and they can be understanding and kind without any betrayal. Grandparents are learning too, so give them a chance by being clear with them about how it should go.
Mrs. T says
Yes, I agree. MIL is able to do the things I’m often too busy to do (like decorate Christmas cookies the year I had a Christmas Eve baby).
And clear communication between both parties is essential!!
Lindsay B says
I feel that I have to push back against the idea that grandparents can “suspend the rules” and give extra cookies (or keep kids up late, or whatever) even if they’re just visiting– I feel like our grandparent visits are much less pleasant than they could be due to my kids’ wild behavior, which is a direct result of all the “spoiling.” I learned from you, Auntie Leila, that when little ones are acting up, it’s often that they need good food, rest, and routine/predictability- so when that all goes out the window due to this “sweet, indulgent” grandparent behavior, it is very hard to handle.
There is a culture of grandparents abdicating any responsibility (“it’s great to be a grandma since I can just spoil this child instead of having to think of their actual needs! I just do whatever she wants!”)… and I will say I am currently dealing with the behavioral fallout of my in-laws caring for my children for a mere 24-hours, so I admit to being a bit touchy about it. 🙂
Leila says
I can see your point of view here, haha…
Certainly this sort of thing can get out of hand. It’s not good for grandparents to be disruptive! I will just say that sometimes parents can be excessively strict about such things as an extra cookie or ice cream cones all around on an outing, and it’s nice to be spoiled that way once in a while.
It’s funny how there are extremes on each side. We just have to seek a balance.
Emily says
The occasional spoiling by grandparents reminds me of the scene in Wendell Berry’s Hannah Coulter novel when Hannah gets upset with Margaret for acting impertinent, as she sees it, towards her grandma Feltner. Mrs. Feltner is quick to remind Hannah that it’s good for children to be spoiled now and again because it’s a sign they are absolutely loved and adored by someone. I loved this little chide by the otherwise very reserved Grandma Feltner. And they all lived together day and were able to pull it off!
Gretchen McPherson says
This principle of situational awareness is so important, and I love the way you describe it and your examples of situations and dialogues.