Last Sunday the reading at Mass (new rite) was the Gospel that is rather uncomfortable: Luke 12:49-53, where Our Lord mentions all the various close relationships that the divisions of His fire-setting will cause.
Auntie Sue (that muse/sounding board/dependable guide of so much of what you read here, see Save a Step Cooking inter alia) pointed out to me that the litany we read there (father against son, mother against daughter, and so on), so painful to hear, has one important omission, and indeed in all of Scripture we do not find the idea of division in one relationship: husband and wife.
You know that I don't give a lot of marriage advice here, because it's awkward for me since my husband does read the blog and I have a keen awareness of my failings, but things have gotten to that point that I am willing to expose myself (not that he ever, ever faults me!).
I receive a lot of emails — a lot — on the subject of a husband who seems to refuse to have a meeting of minds with his wife (my correspondent) on matters of grave importance to her. Since the lockdown and the extreme events of the past two years, this situation has become an immediate crisis for many. Where husband and wife should be able to agree and be as one about how they will approach various questions, there is instead grievous conflict.
Let me give a little advice (bullet points below!) — advice that I have learned by observation and also “the hard way”!
There must be no conflict, no division between husband and wife! To arrive at a good outcome, we have to understand the dynamics of how spouses make decisions.
Some people are going to react to what I have to say with instant rejection; nevertheless, it's the only way out if you've reached an impasse. The other way — division — is not an option! I'm not going to offer a lot of disclaimers. I haven't found this advice anywhere else. I doubt anyone really knows what I'm going to say (unless you are one of the ones I responded to by email!).
It's this.
We have to understand that the husband is the leader of the family, because there is hierarchy, not equality, in this relationship — as there is in every organic institution. The persons are equal in dignity, but one is the leader, and that is the man.
The husband is guided by the virtue of his wife and not her authority, but he is guided by it. He listens to her, much more than she thinks, when she speaks calmly. When she conveys to him assurance that she trusts his leadership (even when he falters and fails — remember, people respond to affirmation!), he then has the confidence to listen.
When he is not listening, there is something else going on, and I will try briefly to explain what that likely is. I don't know every situation, so don't bother commenting about that — I get it. but I have observed some things and it might help just to hear me out.
Husbands, fathers, have very little support for their leadership today. Every speck of entertainment mocks and belittles them. All our narratives are about women and what makes us happy, fulfilled, empowered, and so forth. No one cares a shred for what makes men happy; no one bothers to understand their psychology, though woe betide men if they don't understand a woman's!
Many men experience ridicule at work and/or in their extended family when the others discover that for instance, another baby has arrived, often put in crude terms. Remember, ladies, you probably don't know how men talk to each other when you're not present — I only have an inkling because I've overheard their accounts of events. We women have our shortcomings and men have theirs.
The prevailing idea is that marriage is a partnership and women should provide for material things equally; no one respects a man who supports his family.
And yet, deep within a man because he is a man is the need, the urge and instinct and drive, to provide and protect. It defines a man to be the leader of his household (even a man who is not a leader in his work or in the community).
This stark dichotomy between what our society (and even close family) think a man is and what he knows himself to be (even if he doesn't admit it!) creates conflict within him. He can't talk about it because… he's a man! To mention it is to fail! Women express our stress over internal conflict by talking about it; men don't — and cannot –express this particular conflict, because it would undermine their manhood to do so. Only we women have the freedom to speak of it, but our attention has been fixed elsewhere (namely, on our own sex).
Women are so used to being the center of attention these days that we project our mode of experience onto men, just as we project our reaction to immodesty, but that's that other post!
So a wife really has trouble interpreting her husband's stony-faced resistance to her careful arguments and also, let's be honest, rants, over current events and future plans and decisions. It's not that he doesn't respect your opinion. It's that he is fighting another battle. It's making him insane that you don't realize that your very survival and that of your children depends on his ability to fight. This is his point of view — can you respect it?
The lockdown made this typical dynamic of our (feminist) times much worse, in that, added to all that other societal lack of affirmation, good men were suddenly faced with enforced inactivity (so inimical to the male spirit) and a sense of doom over which they had no control.
This exasperating and seemingly unreasonable unwillingness to listen to you, I hope you can begin to see, is your man's effort to just try to reassert any control where he can, namely, in his own family. Don't try to explain this to him either. Just understand it.
Husbands should make the ultimate decisions about the welfare of the family. They have the grace of state to see the big picture and not panic over details. Good wives understand that these ultimate decisions are very much informed by wifely wisdom; it's all in how that wisdom is imparted.
Okay, here are the action items, and note that they do not include any focus on the problem but instead are about what the wife can do to remedy the situation in love and a generous spirit:
- Affirm his protection and provision. Using specific language; every day mention your gratitude. Point out to the children that their father is a good provider and takes care of you all.
- Ask him what he thinks about the topic that is troubling you: “What did you think about [mention current event in the news or some article you both read]?” Listen. Don't offer your opinion just yet. Give him the sense that you have honestly listened (and ask yourself if you have hitherto given him this sense).
- Understand and ponder the tremendous stress of being a husband and father in a world that sees no value in those roles, when his very being requires that he embrace them.
- Genuinely, honestly, humbly question your own tone and timing in bringing stressful topics up. When a man carries the burden of his family's well being around on his shoulders, he may not see the conversation in the abstract light you do. My choice of a time to discuss my views on this or that might not be his time (and vice versa! good to know these things! can I have my tea first!).You may take it for granted that he will be able to take care of you all and that he knows you think this, but what he hears in your voice and your words (even if you don't mean it at all!) is “you can't take care of us against this overwhelming onslaught!” and his natural reaction is to seek a solution — one you might not like. You would have better results if you didn't push him into that corner!
- Be calm and peaceful. God wants your marriage to be unified and strong. Our Lord, as the aunties are telling you, does not include “husband and wife” in His account of who, in that “household of five,” will be opposed.
- Pray to St. Joseph, protector of the family.
Soon, if you sincerely take these steps, you will see a willingness in him to listen to you and see your point of view. Gracefully let him arrive at his own conclusions; let him lead, for your own good and the good of your family — and for his good! Be generous! Have a big heart!
Another possibility is that, after the effort of listening, you will honestly and without any difficulty arrive at the point where you change your own position (I know, I'm always right too! But it can happen!).
NB: Please try not to leave any personal details in any comment. You can always email me. Please don't expose your husband in public! If your comment gets deleted it's because I think it's inappropriate.
NB 2: I have a lot of emails in my inbox. I'm about two weeks behind. If you wrote to me before that and I didn't answer, please resend your email! Also search the archives here! I'm sorry!
PS: On Tuesday at 3pm Central 4pm Eastern I will be doing an Instagram live with dear Sofia if you are interested!
bits & pieces
- Yes, you need the liberal arts, from John Agresto “If we learn nothing else from classic literature, the great works of philosophy, or the study of historical figures, we should see that constraining freedom of the mind today leads to control in other, perhaps all, areas of human life and flourishing later.”
- Real women of the Wild West (just so you know my anti-feminism doesn't have anything to do with thinking women can't sling a gun or anything)(not endorsing prostitution but some of these stories are epic)
- I have not listened to these podcasts, but a close friend, father of 10, finds that his history-buff sons (13 on up) really enjoy them. He says, “I can’t vouch for all of Jocko’s podcasts but this one with Mike Durant is excellent.” From the bio: “Retired Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink and Director, Echo Charles discuss discipline and leadership in business, war, relationships and everyday life.” My friend recommended this one and this one so far.
- I like much of Laurel's decorating blog for what I'm always saying about training your eye, and this post about whether yellow walls should be hated is a good example (I love yellow walls as you can tell!).
from the archives
liturgical living
St. Bernard, a truly amazing saint!
follow us everywhere!
My book, The Summa Domestica: Order and Wonder in Family Life is available now from Sophia Press! All the thoughts from this blog collected into three volumes, beautifully presented with illustrations from Deirdre, an index in each volume, and ribbons!
My “random thoughts no pictures” blog, Happy Despite Them — receive it by email if you like, or bookmark, so you don’t miss a thing!
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Serena says
Internalizing this, that the husband is the head of the house and takes on the responsibility of final decisions, as well as so much else, took some work on my part (so much work lol) but it is worth it. Thank you as always for speaking the truth in love and being such an excellent Titus 2 mentor. Love you Auntie Leila!
Kristi says
I love this! I struggle to practice this, but it’s my goal. There are Catholic wives practicing this — You didn’t use the word submission, but it’s that — following the Laura Doyle books. Men need our respect.
I’ve long wanted you to give marital advice. You are an opinionated, smart woman and if you can do this … so can I!
Thanks, Leila!
Leila says
Yes, they need our respect, and submission to their leadership, but I hope it comes through that I am not saying to submit to something that is not right.
Both husband and wife have to do what they think is right, together. When the wife sees her husband going wrong, she should realize that she has tremendous, even ultimate, influence over him, but not by strong-arming him into anything. She has to use the methods I speak of here, because they work through understanding his motives for clinging to something that seems wrong or for doing something that seems wrong.
It will take time because first she has to step away from arguments and build trust. Only then will he be open to the other side and want to take responsibility.
He has to believe that he will be respected for taking responsibility, especially when it comes with the cost of basically everyone ridiculing him, him losing his job, him being exposed as an idiot (as he thinks will happen), and so on. How does he get this courage? By the understanding and affirmation of his wife!
He will do the right thing (or the wife will realize she was mistaken). God is on their side.
Birdie says
I love that you touched on “submission”…young women don’t want to hear that word because they’ve a preconceived notion that it means “under”. I myself have had to work through this issue over many years and have realized, by the grace of God, that being submitted to my husband is the sweetest and free-est place because I choose to be covered and nurtured by him. It is the ultimate expression of trust…”I trust you, husband, to make the best choices for our family and to be the spiritual covering for our home”!
S says
I can’t agree more about Laura Doyle! They provide scripts and phrases to really speak in that grateful way that you describe, Auntie Leila
Leila says
I will just say this: remember, you will likely have many friends and a wide circle of trust. Your husband will likely have… you. Men really depend on their wives to be virtuous and wise! Even the most choleric man depends on his wife.
So it’s not just about submitting in everything. It’s about having a spirit of a helpmeet so that he can have the freedom to rely on you. This is a paradox and I’m not sure that everyone gets it.
The man is the leader of the family — when the woman allows him to be, she then is able to draw him to greatness of soul — when she herself is pursuing goodness.
Dixie says
Ha! I just came home from a long and difficult grocery run that cost a scary # of $ (inflation!) and I for once had the good sense to say to my husband after we put it all away, “Aren’t we blessed to have all of this food and a family to eat it?” rather than “how will we ever afford groceries at this rate????” which probably would have sounded a lot like “you don’t make enough money” to him, even though that’s not what I would’ve meant…
I forget sometimes how much the woman tends to set the emotional tone in the family, the tone in which the man also has to live and try to accomplish his responsibilities. We should probably try to think of things from his perspective more as we set that tone. Thanks for this post with lots of good things to think about regarding this!
Elizabeth says
Wow! I love your example.
Newly married here and hoping to internalize this advice.
Amy says
Please, Please, Please, keep trying to avoid bitterness from his decision and also the need to say, “I told you so” if it fails. It is so damaging. And honestly thank him any time he points out that maybe we should have gone with your idea, but leave it there. A difficult lesson that I hope I have learnt.
Carol says
Thank you again for your timely wisdom on marriage!
Also, as I sit here in my yellow walled great room, I find the link to the article that justifies my decorative choices doesn’t work. 🙁
Leila says
No, she loves yellow walls! Lots of pretty examples in that post!
Rebecca says
Hi, Leila. Laurel’s link goes to Jocko’s podcast.
Leila says
Fixed now, thanks!
Emily says
The link to the blog about yellow walls goes to the Jocko podcast. 🙁
Emily says
Oops, I see that it’s fixed now!
Jo says
I love this and these are things that need to be said. Thank you!!
And heard. I have a lot of years of mistakes and learning. When I’m out with others I’m often appalled as to how other women speak of their husbands. Wow. I’m so thankful that I can look back over the years and see how I’ve grown. When I say anything positive, complimentary or just nice, my husband just shines. I’m not perfect with this, even now, but I am intentional in trying to lift him up daily. When he’s happy, I’m happy. Some days I have to work hard to look past the irritations. Often the next day, when I look back, it has been either daily frustrations in myself or just plain feeling my own grumpiness. Don’t get me wrong. Over the years we’ve had some really hard times…but I’m so thankful we pushed thru those hard times because we love each other today beyond what I ever realized was possible.
As young women my suggestion is that you surround yourself with people who are like minded – people who act like what you want in your own life. Like honoring your husband. Being kind to others. So simple – be kind!
Mere says
Bravo! It took me a long time to learn that husbands need respect and gratitude more than anything. The book that broke my controlling nature is The Empowered Wife by Laura Doyle–it’s secular, but gives practical examples of Auntie Leila’s core advice above. Life is sweet now that I finally understand.
Leila says
Yes, but here’s the thing.
It’s not that the husband is always RIGHT. It’s that he’s the leader.
I am not saying to submit to something that is WRONG.
I am saying that if you hope to have influence, the influence proper to a wife, who in a sense leads in this intimate way of virtue, by drawing him towards the good, you must go about it with understanding.
I don’t want anyone to think I’m saying that there’s no hope or that you should go along with something that is not right. I’m saying that the wife can influence her husband to the good but MUST do it the right way, and be patient about it too!
Leila says
Please don’t confuse my advice with that of anyone else, because usually I find that I don’t quite agree with whoever it is!
And I also think that we are facing extreme attacks on the family where the husband aligns himself with the world against what the wife believes are the true interests of the family. And in the messages I have gotten I have had the sense that the wife is coming up against a wall where she feels she has to take over and even leave.
That is why I have these steps, these points, to follow, for a specific issue that seems to be dividing the family. Rest assured that Our Lord does not want the family to be divided down the line that goes between husband and wife!
Maria says
1) I like this.
2) I also am always right but if I make up my mind — when I feel I can do nothing but scream at the injustice of it all and his unwillingness to hash it out with me — to look for what I can change in my words/behavior etc, I always find it, even if I think this is small potatoes to which I think he should fix..
3) do you recommend the same when we are discussing a marriage in which the husband is pretty entrenched in, I dunno what to call it, but I guess worldly stuff? Like if his values align more closely to modernism and such? Or if not, any tips how to navigate that without undermining the husband’s authority? (this is not my situation but I have discussed such with friends whose it is)
Leila says
Yes, I am talking about important things. Where the disagreement feels like it’s in that zone in the Gospel, turning one family member against the other over right and wrong.
What I’m trying to say is that it’s not, because husband and wife are not on the list.
These are my tips.
These are the only tips I have. They are, dare I say, important.
Maria says
Yes, I am seeing also with the way you answered some of the other comments how this might work in the kind of situation I commented about. Thank you!
Mrs. T says
Bravo, Auntie Leila. Bravo.
My husband once said to me, in a quiet, unassuming moment, “I carry a lot inside of me.” It completely softened my heart for him.
Leila says
Oh!
Wow.
A rare moment of revelation. What a grace for you!
Donna L. says
Dear Auntie Leila~ Thank you for these gems of wisdom. It is refreshing for someone to give advice such as this to those of us who are working through toward marital happiness! I have been the recipient of some of your stellar advice in the past, improved a bit as a wife {a work in progress am I 🙂 } and have adopted the “you are funding our bliss” compliment. Things are much better and I appreciate you so much! Thank you and may God bless you today and forever!
Cirelo says
Great topic, though hard to talk about without TMI!
Three areas where this problem can get magnified: I have a lot of alcoholism in my family background and I have seen that it can result in the wife taking on the husband’s role out of what seems like necessity of the husband non-performing. This pattern can get passed down generationally.
I have seen the same sort of things happen to divorced friends, the women are forced to take on male and female roles in the home and pass this dynamic on to their children.
I think that there are men who don’t separate properly from their mothers and you see this more now with overparenting and helicopter parenting. But also in divorced situations where the son has to take on a husband- like role to the mother. I think that these men who have not separated from their families emotionally or sometimes physically tend to gravitate towards women who will be dominating. So there are always two people at play in these dysfunctional dynamics. I firmly believe that Mary was setting the example to women when she offered up her son, that the sorrow of womanhood is in part that you love and nurture and LET go!
The hope is that I know that major change can happen when one person changes! It is hard to let it begin with you in a marriage but so often the woman has the gift of seeing the problem. I highly recommend Alanon to anyone who has patterns of alcoholism, codependency, or control issues in their family even if their spouses aren’t alcoholics–it has helped me in my marriage in ways I never expected because it’s taught me that instead of changing my spouse I have to change the person I can control-myself. In a healthy non-martyry way!
Mrs. T says
Wonderful comment.
Leila says
Thanks for this. I have not had to deal with alcoholism so it’s very helpful.
Likewise, I recommend Leila Miller’s Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak, for anyone whose parents are divorced or whose spouse’s are. It can be ordered from Amazon (https://amzn.to/3dNu9Cq — affiliate link) but also read in its entirety here: https://www.leilamiller.net/digitalbook
I can’t emphasize enough the insights to be found in this book.
Margaret says
I have concerns about Laura Doyle, whom a couple commenters have mentioned. Her podcast topics are things like “How to make your husband love you again”, and it just seems like manipulative techniques to get your husband to do what you want. I think this is antithetical to what is being suggested here.
S says
I really hear you and would encourage you to find blog posts and podcasts that might even 1% resonate with you and hear her out. My husband is so grateful for her work.
Sarah says
Unity, respect, gratitude, trust, and listening. Yes.
One thing that helped me to realize was that I’m not legalistically obeying my husband, and I don’t ever want to be fighting against my husband. I’m working with my husband on how we can be united against powers and principalities, you know, the bad kind. They are the only ones who win if we’re divided and mad at each other. Sometimes in charity we have to be against something the other one says/does/wants to do, but that’s for the sake of being FOR one another’s holiness and virtue, and our unity in the marriage bond. And he’s doing his best to image Christ laying down His life for His Church, and I’m doing my best to image the gratitude of the Church for that. Very, very imperfectly! But seeking to recognize and appreciate the ways in which he DOES manage that.
Sarah says
Also. The husband as provider and protector is an image of God the Father as provider and protector. When we realize this and put our trust there, ultimately, a lot of the anxiety that leads to marital conflict can be ameliorated.
Leila says
Yes, good comments.
The problem is when the husband is going in the wrong direction. Then the wife must find a way to draw him to the right direction while still honoring the way he is the image of this protection and provision of God.
Just as if the wife is going the wrong way, the husband must lead her back within the context of her nurturing spirit — or the fear of giving into it.
Somehow we have to approach our problems with the realities in mind — the realities of what makes a woman tick and what makes a man tick. And that takes a lot of imagination and understanding, because the sexes are not intuitively in on each other’s secrets!
Marlene Gonzalez says
THANK YOU. I really needed to read this, so timely! Unfortunately this is not the sort of thing some women in my family understand; they don’t really understand the whole “man must provide because it’s written in mans nature” and that to insult/belittle that is to cut the man down. Hence, when I ask for advice from them on how to approach a situation with my husband, it’s usually “he’ll get over it,” which isn’t especially helpful. So this post was extremely good for me to read!
An aside— I love your “side of the road” chair and is that an Avlea cross stitch design I see on the pillow? Bridget introduced me to those patterns and I’ve been hooked ever since.
Leila says
You’re welcome!
I love those patterns but no, this is a boughten pillow. I just like its strong colors! I have one of those embroidery kits, though, that Bridget gave me, and soon when gardening is done I will begin on it!
Catherine says
Thank you for this post! I especially like the reminder that their point of view is different, and we don’t see it, precisely because they’re not sharers the way women are.
Two other comments from previous weeks, I always mull things over and am ready with a comment about a month late. 😉
1. If you’re looking for kitchen cabinets, look at Fabuwood. Very high quality for a price just slightly above big box stores. I have lots more details based on research for our house from 5 years ago, if you want (zero affiliation with them, to be clear.)
2. I think having a craft or hobby really fits with the idea of us women keeping ourselves available and not over-scheduled, because it’s fulfilling in a different way from housework and the kids (maybe the type of fulfilling similar to what people look for in working outside the home?) AND, wonderfully, it can fill up any bits of extra time that we’ve reserved for those who need us, if they don’t end up needing us in that particular moment. I sew, and depending on what phase of pregnancy, breastfeeding, illness etc we’re all at, I might not sew for a long time, but then I’m back at it when I can, enjoying making useful and beautiful things! But it can wait when I don’t have the time for it, which is such a relief.
Anamaria says
Ha! I’m glad I’m not the only one who takes so long to mull things over.
Natalie says
Thank you! I started this post in line at fast food place and was chuckling aloud (as I usually do through your cheerful blog)..anyway, could be crying by the end. What a timely word for our “feminist” era as you perfectly put it… ❤️❤️❤️
Emily says
I think there’s something in the wife and the husband truly embracing their familial roles over the course of marriage that (generally) lends itself to the man leading and the wife having her proper and respected place by his side.
As the children come and they need the mothers attention more and more, we have less space to try to prick our husbands with a million little concerns and worries. Ones that they’re usually already carrying and considering. And as they have more people under their care, they are seeing their responsibilities increase, and they respond appropriately.
There are tougher decisions that come along, like whether and where to relocate your family, job and salary changes, etc. But navigating those rightly and with the respect due each spouse is more or less something that I think gets a little easier over time. It is messy sometimes and we fail each other. But, the more we’ve learned to trust the other and seen their ability to excel in their proper role, the less we feel the need to control the other spouse.
Perhaps recognizing any past situations where a spouse has felt the other betrayed the care for the family could help a couple see why they may have trouble in this domain. And then working through that in a way that is healing, not belittling. Also recognizing ways our parents over or under-provided for each spouse as a child (or currently) can help us understand our expectations, and whether they are just or not. All this to say, I think it takes time for a couple to really grow into their family roles, and learning to manage our own expectations and anxieties can be half the battle.
M'Lynn Kearney says
The link to Laurel’s decorating post (yellow walls) takes me to the previous item which isn’t recognizable at all as decorating…
Leila says
I did fix the link — refresh your page and it will be the right one!
Laurel Bern says
Hi Leila,
Thanks so much for linking to my blog post about yellow walls– much appreciated!
Tara says
I love your blog, Laurel. You help us to see and name the tawdry and ugly, and set our sights on making a space of beauty in our homes. You give hope and a practical way forward to making it all more lovely. “The end of all endeavor is to be perfectly happy at home.” Thank you for helping us do this!
Leila says
Thank you for helping us “train our eyes”!
Lauren says
I’m a few weeks late, but this post is so very helpful. Thank you! I was also excited by the links because my husband really enjoys the Jocko podcasts, and I have found Laurel’s blog so helpful for a few years now-it was great to see it linked here! I love yellow too.