Thanks for all your thoughts on my own book! I will keep you posted on how it's going, including the number of volumes!
Continuing with our reading of A Return to Modesty (affiliate link), let's look at Part Two. (Part One is here — we can still continue the discussion in the comments!)
Forgiving Modesty: Maybe modesty is a fine virtue, we can't help thinking as we read the compilation of evidence in the book. Maybe, as Shalit says, there really are differences between the sexes, and when we women choose something to wear that is pretty and not provocative, we simply feel more comfortable. We feel more settled in ourselves and more able to cope with the outside world.
I grew up in the miniskirt era. Truly, the sheer embarrassment of those days was so scarring. So much energy put into what one was going to wear and whether one could manage it all without some untoward exposure (keep in mind that undergarments had been jettisoned). No wonder our wardrobe ended up being jeans and more jeans.
Modesty, says Shalit, invites men to “consider what the ideal relation between them and women should be” (p. 102). It doesn't just invite them. It requires them to respect women, by not allowing them past the point where they can do otherwise.
The Great Deception: I am not as interested in what (early) modern philosophers thought about modesty as Shalit is. The whole problem comes down to the modernist rejection of givens and the desire to remake human nature.
The given that men and women are different must be recovered if we are not always to arrive at the position of John Stoltenberg (p. 112), that our relations amount to various forms of rape — of men imposing on women.
Instead of cooperating to make life peaceful, we are engaged in a war of all against all. That's what I hate about the MeToo movement: It's just another way to lock us into this endless battle, and it doesn't ask women to do anything about how we behave or think about ourselves — it wants to keep the feminist sense of war going.
We should be able to ask ourselves why this wasn't always the way the sexes looked at each other! And I think Shalit is making the best case for finding our way out again.
On the question of what is sexy to women: Modernism, because it begins and ends in doubt and will accept nothing outside of itself, is narcissistic and will always leave us with the man's perverted understanding of himself — and that is why women find ourselves being force-fed male erotic imagery. We women don't even understand that when society abandons modesty, it arrives at homosexuality — and with women being required to pretend that we like male nudity; the final mockery is in fact our unawareness that naked men exist for men, not for us.
Can Modesty Be Natural?: P. 132: “So one of modesty's paradoxes, then, is that it is usually a reflection of self-worth, of having such a high opinion of yourself that you don't need to boast or put your body on display for all to see.”
I think this is undeniable — modesty protects women in the way a beautiful aqua box protects a Tiffany jewel, and proclaims in the same exact way the worth of what it protects. But —
Perhaps the weakness of women, that we often don't have the self-worth necessary to make this claim for ourselves, can be resolved by Scripture: “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” (1 Cor 6:19-20).
P. 137: “You may think you see me, the modestly dressed woman announces, but you do not see the real me. The real me is only for my beloved to see.”
I would say that the modest woman is presenting her real, true self — but not every bit of it. A modest deportment is not a lie, but it is not the whole truth, because it couldn't be. Some things are intimate and not for general consumption!
Male Character: Male honor, being a gentleman, the restoration of chivalry… “Ultimately, it seems that only men can teach other men how to behave around women, but those men have to be inspired by women in the first place, inspired enough to think the women are worth being courteous to.” (p. 157).
I think men would treat all women well if there were some women around to inspire them to it. This, after all, is a principle of chivalry: to be honorable no matter what the circumstances. But yes, we have to demonstrate that this is the world we wish to be in — we need inspiration all around.
I believe that one effect of virtue is precisely to help those who are less virtuous. An honest person provides a bit of cover for a person who struggles with honesty. A brave person helps a timid person over the rough patches.
If the most thoughtful women are modest, they contribute to a culture where heedless women are nevertheless treated with more respect, because the men have an ideal before them to which they, in turn, can aspire with their own kind of goodness.
The ending of this section should give us food for thought. If legislation designed to eliminate inequalities has the effect of making women's lives harder, perhaps equality ideology (i.e. feminism) should be rejected.
bits & pieces
- I was blown away by this insight from Fr. Pokorsky (remember how I had said that Pope Benedict offers a great Lenten meditation on the Temptations of Christ in his book Jesus of Nazareth? Well, Fr. P shows how Mary beat him to it!).
- Fr. McTeigue interviewed me on the topic of abortion this past week. There was some technical difficulty, so things get a little iffy at times. However, I do get my main thoughts in! At the end, there wasn't time to get to the point of my little story, but I will tell you here that the priest I was speaking of was open to learning more. We the laity need to be brave and hold the priests and bishops to the moral law.
- Oregon Engineer Makes History With New Traffic Light Timing Formula — I just love this story, not least because he had to overcome some ridiculous professional licensing injustices to get… the green light.
- “A society that believes in nothing can offer no argument even against death. A culture that has lost its faith in life cannot comprehend why it should be endured.” Death on demand comes to Germany.
from the archives
- The moral life of children and how to nurture it — a series (linked within)
- Rosie's cauliflower soup!
liturgical year
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Kelsey says
There is so much I could say about this section of the book!
First, regarding modesty in dress (and all of the other elements of modesty that coexist in subcultures where modesty in dress are the norm): there is a sizable Orthodox Jewish community where I live, although mostly I see them when I take my kids to the local aquarium. I don’t know why they frequent the aquarium so much! But anyway, the women are always very modest and feminine and do definitely have a “twinkle” about them, as Shalit observed in Part 1. I observed a similar twinkle in the Mormon community that surrounded my high school friend that I mentioned last week. It is, tragically, not something I observe in most Catholic parishes, although I do know some very twinkly nuns in traditional orders who wear full habits! Our own parish is quite traditional and actually there is a good amount of twinkling, though if I’m being honest, there is enough conflict of opinion over modesty even in this community that it does diminish somewhat. All of these observations are merely that, not really judgement. The “twinkle test”?!
I was intrigued by Shalit’s thoughts in chapter seven regarding women and compliments. I had never thought of it in quite that way before, but it does ring true to me. A natural bashfulness regarding compliments really does preserve the inner life and really does help us harken to our inner compass. Our very immodest culture is so obsessed with outside opinion that we’ve sunk ourselves deeply into the muck of such nonsense as extreme political correctness, etc. It’s all connected.
Also connected is the widespread emasculation of men and all the many, many problems we are facing as a result. There are so many social issues right now that would be solved to great extent if men stood up and behaved like men. But how can we expect that when there is no inspiration to protect, to serve, to sacrifice?
Finally, I was reminded of Alice von Hildebrand’s The Privilege of Being a Woman continually while reading through this section. That’s such a great resource for anyone looking for further discussion of the unique and positive meaningfulness of femininity.
Leila says
Kelsey, I think the vast majority would fail a twinkle test! What strikes me most about today’s climate on campuses and among young people is the sense of having to make all one’s choices very carefully, to be ready to manage every aspect of life, to prioritize optimization of one’s resources. I see girls being very stressed out! And guys just retreating into sports or other mindless activities.
We’ve insisted that they cut out the most important part of life — finding a spouse — and still be twinkly!
Victoria says
Hmm, interesting, Kelsey, there is also a sizable Jewish diaspora near where I live, as well as a local aquarium where they hang out; and there are also Catholic communities near me where arguments about standards of modesty are common…hmmmm interesting coincidence.
But aside from my cheek, I do like your reflection. 🙂 And I like the idea of the “twinkle test.”
Corina says
The article about Romania and marxism is extremely good and accurate, maybe too soft regarding the devastation that communism left behind in my country. Romania will never recover after this, most young Romanians are abroad (we have a migration rate similar only to SIria and other nations which are in war) and our aging parents were left behind (my father often tells me how few young people are left in my hometown).
The mistrust was maybe the worst thing that happened to us, and it was especially damaging in the church. When they opened the secret archives, after ’89, we have discovered that even some of those who were in prison for the faith in the ’50s and ’60s became informers later, in the ’70s and ’80s. The entire country was a sort of Pitesti phenomenon – attenuated, but recognisable in its working mechanism. Many of my parents generation are still blocked in this kind of mentality – for example my father cannot trust a priest for confession, because he grew up knowing that it could be a trap.
The other aspect that maybe a Westerner could not fully aprehend is the degree in which the normal person became a liar and a thief. In order to survive; many were stealing from the various state entreprises and this mentality remained deeply ingrained and didn’t magically go away after ’89.
I often talk to my children about the scarcity of everything during my childhood (and also about the ways in which we survived), about the lines to buy sugar or butter or whatever, about the bread and milk ratios, the days without water (we had to fill recepients with water early in the morning, when it was available and then do it again in the few hours in the evening when it came again, many times filthy), the winter evenings when the electricity went off every evening and we had to do things by the oil lamp and go to bed early.
I was ten years old when the communism fell in Romania and I remember everything very well, the joy mixed with a lot of anxiety, but also the confusion and the uncertainty. The thing is that what came afterward was, in some aspects, worse than what we already had. Coming to the subject of modesty, we were hit by the worst the western media had to offer in terms of soft porn broadcasted everywhere, nudity ecc in every magazine and newspaper. The society as a whole reacted as an organism hit by a virus for which there was no immunity. During communism these kind of subjects and images were severely censured, but in the ’90s we had this positive bias toward everything that came from the West: I think because of this, my generation was severely damaged.
Leila says
Corina, it’s so tragic. I feel a sense of real responsibility and yet — what can I do?? — to keep these realities alive as a warning. I can’t believe that there are people in responsible positions advocating socialism. We have everything in this country and we are ready to hand it over to the devil.
Heather E says
Another, indirect, way to educate people about the realities of communism are the spy novels of Helen MacInnes. They are great, fun reads and an excellent reminder of the brutality of the cold war era.
Nancy says
I just discovered Helen MacInnes this past year. While We Still Live is a good story!
Leila says
I just got it from the library — thanks for the recommendation 🙂
Victoria says
Thank you for sharing your story Corina. I’m always so interested to hear stories of people who lived through Communism, esp. from Romania. My husband is from Romania, but ethnically Hungarian. He left to go to college here in the U.S. and would agree about the harm of pornography in Romania.
Victoria says
We visited with our first two children about five years ago and while we stayed in one of the “nicer” apartments, there were sawn-off pipes coming out of the walls stuffed with Styrofoam, electrical wiring on the outside of the walls; when your upstairs neighbors flushed you could smell their waste and I was often forced to open windows on cold days–it was not fun having a crawling baby. Many still live w/o electricity and community wells are still used in some villages. But what communism does to the heart of people is worse. My in-laws are awkward people by nature, I think, but I also get the impression that years of not being able to trust people has permanently stunted their ability to communicate what they really think or really need (relationally).
Anel Vlok says
I am still waiting for my copy of the book down here in Africa. I was wondering if this is a book that one’s husband could read?
Following comments with interest.
{Also, Leila, did you want to way “Proof for..” instead of “Reason for..”? 🌸🌸}
Leila says
Yes, thanks, changed it!
Leila says
And yes, one’s husband could read the book, for sure.
Anel Vlok says
That is great news. I think our generation of men has forgotten/lost so many things. Their collective memory is also in shambles..
Mrs. Bee says
I second Leila’s opinion about your husband reading this book. We own it because my husband bought it years ago. It will give you wonderful opportunities to discuss some aspects of the upbringing of your children.
Lisa G. says
Leila, did you mean to leave a link to the interview you gave on abortion? Meanwhile, I have one more chapter to read and then I’ll be back!
Leila says
Yes, Lisa, thanks — I added it. It’s also on my podcasts/talks page in the menu bar.
Mrs. Bee says
I loved how simply she put it: You can’t have gentlemen without ladies. It becomes obvious, then, the senselessness of a “war on men and boys”. Shouldn’t we be pleased to play such a fundamental part for the good of civilization? Shouldn’t we be amazed that what works well for society just happens to be in harmony with our deepest feelings and needs, with the truth of being woman – and vice versa?
Instead, we throw away our sanity in a puzzling pursuit that takes many women down a path with contradicting directions: despising men and trying to be like the worst of them all at the same time. Truly, a devilish trap if ever there was one.
Leila says
Once you see things in terms of an ideology that pits people against each other instead of helping each other within their nature — how they are made — you see how insane it all is.
Carol says
In the The Great Deception section she refers to the “androgynous project”–this trend toward androgyny I find frightening, and I frankly see it more on the side of young men than women. Has anyone noticed the increase (in movies, tv, commercials, and everyday life) of young men with somewhat effeminate voices? I have noticed it a lot on tv commercials, almost like the higher voice, with certain inflection is being normalized. I know that men’s voices have always varied, it just seems that the less masculine is more common in young men.
Logan says
I know exactly what you are talking about with the voices! My husband and I noticed it a lot when he was working at a public university in recent years. It was really bizarre, this feminine ring to young men’s voices, almost a whininess. It proliferated!
Lisa says
Androgyny is also becoming more popular in fashion. Some stores don’t even have separate men’s or women’s (or boys and girls) sections. How sad and how boring for everyone to all wear the same clothes!
Jana says
I sometimes tune in to NPR just to test this phenomenon. For the most part, when I try to ‘talk along’ with the female correspondents, I have to drop my voice down to the basement of my register, but when the men speak, I have to elevate from my natural pitch. Sylvia Poggioli, Mary Louise Kelley? Forget it, I can’t go that low. Of course this is purposeful. People naturally consider lower-pitched voices as authoritative. What I find amusing is that instead of making a feminist playbook in which traditionally feminine things are given more weight, the feminists try to copy the men, and end up being the female equivalent of drag queens-adopting the most grotesque exaggeration of male characteristics, and annihilating themselves completely in the process. Feminism delenda est.
Kelsey says
Wow, Jana, you are so right! I often have NPR on in the car – for the classical music – but whenever the news comes on – well, you’re just spot-on correct! I could totally imitate Ari Shapiro, but never Lakshmi Seng.
Lisa says
Yes, I completely agree with women trying to copy men. Aren’t we de-valuing women by saying we need to act more like men?
Jana says
Yes! There must, as Mrs. Bee quoth Shallit, be ladies if there are to be gentlemen.
That said, though we have seen in the feminist project a pathetic and literally fruitless attempt to copy the worst in men, it is good for a woman to try to imitate the best in men. At least in what throughout time has always been considered ‘manly virtue’ – loyalty, fortitude, zeal, intellectual rigor… St. Theresa of Avila was constantly admonishing herself and her nuns to “strive like strong men” because she saw a spiritual danger in giving in too much to the desire for comfort, and the passivity & changeableness that has always been common to women. She tempered the excess of these feminine traits with the exercise of the best of the ‘manly virtues’ in the interior life, but along with everyone until the past century, would have considered it death for a woman to copy his vices, and utter madness for a woman to adopt his outward trappings.
Lisa says
That’s a very good point! I guess that is one of the wonderful things about men and women being different, is that we can learn from each other & each become better by imitating the best qualities in each other. Thank you for sharing what St Theresa of Avila had to say about the subject.
sibyl says
The part about male honor was most striking to me. Why are we surprised when men expect every woman to sleep with them as easily as prostitutes and have a blase attitude? It is so true that women set the expectations.
One of the most heartbreaking things is that, as Shalit notes, most women still really want marriage and family, and there really are so few men who are willing and able to go that route.
Jana says
If a woman puts herself on display, she gives away information that ought to be private. And once her image is in other people’s imaginations, she hasn’t any say over it anymore. She may have exercised a certain power, but she loses authority. And she gains nothing lasting by this ‘transaction.’
As in the garden after the fall, the dignity of a woman is affirmed and guarded by her clothing. If her body is reasonably and beautifully covered, it reaffirms and strengthens a sense of authority, privacy, and custody of herself. There is no mistaking that this body of hers does not belong to anyone but herself and her maker.
When she freely marries, she gives herself only and ever to her husband for his good, and he the same for her, and this gift has its end in the children they will make together.
Would that we could share this hope with those who do not know and cannot imagine the true joy, not of a temporal transaction, but a lifelong, free, exclusive and mutual gift, which brings forth something completely new in this tired, old, transactional world- a baby, a family! And souls that will live forever.
Leila says
Jana, so well put.
Lisa says
I’m finding so much of this book fascinating… I feel like every page could turn into a long discussion! I love the quote on pg.120 by Rousseau “if we should seek to raise our daughters like men, ‘The men will gladly consent to it! The more women want to resemble them, the less women will govern them, and then men will truly be the masters.'”
I also like, on pg. 157, how she talks about women being the ones to inspire men how to behave around women and it really shows the mixed messages men get from women. “Today we inspire them by slamming doors on their fingers, pushing them away when they help us with our coats, and then, when they learn their lesson and begin to treat us with equal-opportunity boorishness, we change our minds and seek to enforce by fiat the respect which was once grounded in custom.”
Lisa G. says
I’m not only amazed at this girl’s command of her subject, but she is (was!) so well-read! And she’s read all sides of the subject, even saying that some books from the opposite point of view are interesting. She is fair-minded and thorough.
In chapter five she says, “Meanwhile, women all around the country, women who have already had numerous sexual affairs, are descending on nineteenth-century period dramas….with a kind of religious seriousness that would be comical if it weren’t so poignant.” I’ve never made that connection! But now it’s so obvious to me.
Later, in the same chapter she quotes words from a song which say, “The woman was the stabilizing factor…world regeneration, when it came – if it came – must come through woman, as life came through her. She was the source.” And now, all that is (almost) lost.
There was a mention of something George Will is supposed to have said, and I didn’t quite get that and now I can’t find the page. Amazing book.
Teri Pittman says
I sort of span the changeover in womens’ dress. Grew up in the 50s, when girls wore dresses. Was in high school in California in the late 60s, when we went from a dress code to being able to wear jeans. And I wore pants for most of my adult life. I did a lot of work outside and pants just made more sense.
When I met the man that became my second husband, he encouraged me to wear long skirts. I wanted to, but needed that push to start sewing again so I could make what I wanted. And I found that there was a change in how men related to me. It was like they felt I was approachable. They could open a door for me and I wouldn’t take offense. They could offer help. I was surprised. I just don’t wear pants any more. I do need to make some new long skirts for spring. (Folkwear Walking Skirt, for those who’d like to make their own. And yes, I wear a petticoat under them too.)
Susan (DE) says
I can relate, though i think I’m a few years behind you. But we ALL wore dresses mostly until 6th grade — ALWAYS in school unless it was 10 degrees or below. In 6th grade, a new superintendent (in Westchester County, NY!) finally allowed girls to wear pants. I remember when my grandmother came by once when I was 7 or 8, and wearing a pair of “pedal-pushers” (turquoise)(like capris). For play. I felt very fashionable. She asked if I’d like to go to the grocery store with her, and I was delighted. Then she said, sounding a little displeased, “Run put on a dress.” I just was not properly attired to go to the grocery! So, I can relate to the feeling of “freedom,” but my friend and I often, in high school, would plan to each wear a skirt or a dress, just because we felt prettier and it was fun. Now I wear long or longer skirts almost entirely, and I find it very comfortable and practical. And more attractive, at least for my body type. And I have had that thought a lot: why is it everyone else’s business WHAT THE SHAPE OF MY BODY IS?? I also find it EXTREMELY ODD, culturally, that girls in our culture are supposed to wear short, tight shorts or tight pants — and boys wear long (to the knee or below) and loose shorts, and loose pants. Often. Just seems like something that would NOT be natural, culturally, world-wide — at least as things have traditionally been.
Jana says
Indeed, all through the last millenium until the 20th century, it was the leg of the man on display, with women’s skirts ample and long.
Imagine a male newsreader wearing the equivalent outfit of the newslady beside him. (A suit, but super tight & sleeveless/short sleeved, with a low neck shirt, and tight suit-shorts to the knee.) Or if the suits of the men at a formal event were as revealing as the dresses. It would be comical! Why must she give away all of that information about her body to onlookers all when he gets to cover up with a complete suit and tie?
Leila says
Susan, I almost went into a similar anecdote on this post — I remember the day we were finally allowed to wear pants. The novelty was exhilarating and I too remember the exact pattern my pants were made in (by my mother, who didn’t even have time to remove the basting threads, so excited was I to put them on).
And then the miniskirt thing came in and I suffered agonies of embarrassment, as I was just in middle school and could have really used more, not less, “coverage” — as can every girl who is struggling with this transition.
A woman’s clothing should be attractive and even shapely, but the idea that it should be revealing is terrible.
Teresa Pittman says
Laurel’s Kitchen Caring by Laurel Robertson is useful. She is a vegetarian but a great cook. Most old cookbooks have a section on caring for the ill and infirm.