So my own book manuscript (the book is a compendium of all the work I've done here on the blog over the years) is at the publisher — and the question is, given its length, would people rather have one large tome (like Home Comforts — affiliate link — a 900 page book about housekeeping) or three volumes?
Either way, carefully produced to be worthy of gift-giving (wouldn't a boxed set be nice? Or for that matter, even the one volume could be boxed!).
Any thoughts about that?
There would be a pretty picture here but I have the flu… it's probably not coronavirus because I live in a backwater and never go out, but it still has me laid low. So keep me company with your great thoughts on our book!
book club
Today we are looking at Part I of A Return to Modesty.
In the new introduction (you can read it here), Wendy Shalit updates her book for the internet age. And she is right, the differences are in intensity, not in kind.
The destruction of modesty in the sexual revolution (abetted by feminism), started out of the gate strong. It's not a case of a gradual process. Feminists wanted equality in all its aspects now and by the 60s had dropped any lip service to convention. But certainly, the images that porn conveys are seared into us in a new way with social media; the demand for it requires innovation in perversion.
Some points I want to bring out about this section (without writing an essay!) — Shalit packs so much into each page that there's no way to go through it all, but feel free to bring out the passages that struck you:
The Intro(s) and The War on Embarrassment: I think I most loved Wendy's description in the (old) introduction of her reaction to the photographs of the Orthodox Jewish couple — that she bursts into tears without knowing why, and somehow absorbs the message they offer her: No Touching, Touching, Hat.
Modesty is moving.
In the new introduction, Shalit makes the connection between modesty and charity. It's only when a person can stop thinking about himself and how he appears can he be good to others.
The pervasiveness of porn (and porn's seepage into regular fashions, media, and interactions) has made the embarrassment Shalit talks about in Chapter 1 near-fatal to a woman's sense of self.
I'm thinking specifically of the fear of both sexes that they will find each other gross — and the burden now on girls to have their private areas look a certain way. This is terrible! It destroys intimacy. I can remember being really shocked to find out that high school girls attending a good Catholic girls' school almost universally wore thong underwear. This seems… pornified to me. What will a woman's expectations be when it comes time to undress before her husband? What will his be? Leaving aside the provenance of such a garment (and its practicality for the vicissitudes of female life), let's be honest — very few would achieve the desired effect when wearing it. But shouldn't every girl, no matter what her shape, be confident that her beloved will find her just as he finds her — and have nothing to compare her to?
Because of the inevitable immersion in an anti-modesty world — its whole purpose for unwary users being to show others me! me! me! — we need to make sure our children are not on social media! Be those parents! Let's find determination in her observation that boundaries don't stifle us — they allow for flourishing. Let's let our children flourish!
Postmodern Sexual Etiquette: Have you noticed the proliferation of rules in the world of human interaction? We did away with “mores” and strict norms and ended up with a veritable Soviet-style bureaucracy of rules. Chesterton rightly pointed out that when we refuse to live by God's 10 Commandments, he ends up with man's 10,000 commandments. And they are all tedious, dreary, and not achieving the desired effect — not that anyone knows what that is! Having jettisoned the idea of marriage, not to mention keeping The Act marital, our society can only cling to the idea of consent. But I think Shalit demonstrates that this is a moving target; not to mention that women are desperately unhappy about it.
The Fallout: It's a trope of feminism that rape is something endemic to patriarchy. Feminists promise a world without rape. But in fact, girls are assaulted all the time. The actual result of feminism, which called for women to be totally sexually available at all times and sought to destroy marriage, is that girls and women are at risk wherever we go.
One reason men and boys were less likely to harass and assault women in the past in civilized society (leaving aside war) is that they knew they would be at risk for retaliation from other men. Today they can act with impunity. Very few men will stand up for the lost cause of protecting women's honor — but men are the only ones who can patrol their own.
Feminism has even succeeded in creating a visceral response to what I wrote above — because feminists are adept at rewriting history. One thing I like about the book is that Shalit has a lot of material from before the revolution to back up her points.
New Perversions: Anorexia, bulimia, and cutting are maladies that simply did not exist in any meaningful way in the general population when I was a child. You would have to read psychiatric manuals to know about them. Return shows that the rise of these issues predates social media, although it's undeniable that sharing online gives an epidemic quality to them that they lacked before.
I think there's more to it than modesty — divorce is one contributer; abortion and IVF are others. Why? Because when you give the child the idea that there is a “picking and choosing” aspect to family bonds, you disturb his reason for existing — his sense of peace and his relation to the universe. Growing up in a society that casually talks about “getting rid of it” and selecting out one of the babies implanted (I was told that in passing 20+ years ago by a perfect stranger) drives the point home: You are expendable.
In girls, this manifests as self harm and what Shalit calls a feeling of deadness. I have seen this — girls so compliant that they seem not to have a will of their own.
I just saw a news story about three women who invented a straw that detects date rape drugs. On the one hand, so innovative. On the other, what's next, a special pillow so you don't hit your head when you pass out? And social media being what it is, no way the guys will not know what this straw is and simply take it away from you. But this conversation is stupid! No sane adult should be having it! Suppose you just didn't go places and be with people who are so harmful to your well being?
However, those factors — divorce, abortion, IVF — are themselves tied to modesty, if we want to define that virtue as a sense of fittingness of our selves, especially our sexuality — of bestowing a sense of telos, of a meaning directed to something real and precious. What are divorce and manipulations of “the products of conception” but a denial of this virtue?
I love that Shalit allows us to catch a glimpse of the real longing that girls have for a fairy-tale ending for themselves.
Tell me what you thought!*
bits & pieces
- Joseph Pearce on a ray of hope in England: Our Lady of Walsingham is on the move.
- Prayer is personal, but it's not individual in the sense of cut off from formality, or from others. The patterns of prayer are fruitful for the soul. To be balanced with this homily of St. John Chrysostom.
- Thomas More College students had a contra dance for their Mardi Gras celebration, and a highlight was senior Jacinta Yellico singing her great-grandfather's #1 country music hit song!
- Peter Kwasnieski on Chant (you can watch or read): “The Roman Rite is the only one among all the Christian rites that has stopped chanting its liturgy.” At the 30 minute mark Prof. Kwasniewski begins an argument for the primacy of chant in worship. Another great observation: “The contrast between singing, which is human expression at its highest, and silence, which is a deliberate withholding of discourse, is more striking than the contrast between speaking and not speaking. The former is like the rise and fall of ocean waves, while the latter seems more like switching a lightbulb on and off.”
from the archives
- What can children do? A refresher on chores and work (Lent is a great time to motivate all the
lazy bumsdear children in your household.)
liturgical year
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*Let's try to read without the specter of “modesty culture” hovering over our shoulders. Just read. False dichotomies create barriers to understanding. It is possible to take an incorrect stance on any virtue — but it is of course possible to live any virtue properly. It's tedious to have the conversation center around those who respond to immodesty intemperately. And it makes me angry when that's all we can talk about, because we need to rescue our children from what Shalit describes.
Just because there is a culture of daredevils who continually test their own courage beyond the limits of reason doesn’t mean that we should reject the virtue of fortitude! Just because teetotalers imposed Prohibition on a nation doesn’t mean that we need to wallow in drink. Common sense!
Kate says
I use “Home Comforts” more as a reference book so I don’t mind that it’s hefty. If I was going to read a book cover to cover, I’d prefer it didn’t hurt my wrist to hold it. I prefer our 3-volume LOTR to the huge one volume edition. Does it come down to a matter of cost?
Leila says
No, not at all — it would be more work to do the three volumes but it’s just a matter of what is more appealing and usable!
Moira says
I am so sorry you are sick!
Regard to your question about the book, I would prefer three volume. I also would love books that would stay open when laid flat… Possibly that adds greatly to the price, but I think it would make it more beautiful and more practical.
I was the highschooler who read Wendy Shalit’s book at 16. It was somewhat of a shock, however I’m so glad I learned about some of these things through reading rather than in conversation. The latter can have a shaming component when coming from peers.
I am quite excited for your book! I have been following this blog for 11? Years and have gained so much wisdom!
Emily says
Re: your book.
One, I cannot wait to read it!!! It will be much loved!
I could go either way. I do love a big tome, and I’m sure it would be beautiful. But on the other hand, I can see the appeal of three–ease of reading, for one, since it can be hard to keep a large book open if you’re holding it (I’m thinking of my hardback version of Les Miz here). So I’m sorry I’m not more helpful here! 🙂
I’m going to get the Shalit book and dive in once I have it!
Leila M. Lawler says
Emily – – great– looking forward to your thoughts when you have the book 🙂
Lisa says
I vote for three volumes in some sort of durable binding and paper so it withstands use and time!
Leila M. Lawler says
Yes, Lisa, for sure — it needs to be well produced, and Sophia (the publisher) really excels at that.
Ann says
Hope you are feeling better soon. The idea of a three volume boxed set sounds lovely.
Leila M. Lawler says
Thanks, Ann!
Rachel says
I don’t have a preference between one volume and three, so long as it will stay open to the page you are reading without much effort so you can set it on a table, or chair arm or lap to read without having to hold it.
Blayne says
I have read Home Comforts cover to cover. Twice. That said, I love a good “tome”.
Leila M. Lawler says
I have read Home Comforts cover to cover. Twice. That said, I love a good “tome”.
Blayne says
I don’t want to speak for all your readers, but I would guess many of them (myself included) are going to read the book, and probably re read, or revisit parts of it many times—as a kind of reference book, really. So, team Tome over here! 😆 I can’t wait for this book!
Blayne says
ALSO: I think a Kindle option would solve the need for something lighter in the hand. I actually would appreciate that too, as yet another nursing mother.
Lisa G. says
Such exciting news about Our Lady of Walsingham!!!!! Your book: I find Home Comforts less appealing than it might be because of its size, so I’d much prefer three. I’m glad you asked; I was almost dreading buying a book that I want to have, but don’t want to deal with if it’s so large. 😀
I am amazed at Wendy Shalit’s mind – to express herself so clearly at a young age. No one could read this and have any substantial or sensible way of refuting it.
Leila M. Lawler says
Lisa, I know! She was 23. She just pours out so much material. Only an ideologue could read this book and say, “nah, girls should be treated the way they’ve been treated”! And yet here we are.
Melina says
One volume, three volumes, I’m buying it either way. Sorry to not be more helpful! Both arrangements have benefits.
Shalit’s book sounds very worth reading.
Kathleen T says
Just piping in quickly to say, I vote for three volumes WITH an index or table of contents for all three. So I don’t have to open three books to find that item I remembered reading. Will be back with book club comments. They are delivering my new stove today! Eek!
Leila says
Kathleen, do you mean a separate (fourth?) volume with an index?
Kathleen T says
That would be perfect, if that’s how the publisher and you want it. It would just be nice to only have to search one index. I have some multiple vol cook books and it seems I am opening each of them, every time to find what I need. If the volumes have clear themes maybe this isn’t a big concern. I’ll get it however you package it and maybe two….I doubt this info will be around much once my girls are grown.
Ann F Turner says
About the index, could you put the index for all 3volumes in each of the 3? With a slight preference for the 3 volume set, in the best of all possible world’s I could see publishing it both ways. Is that like really helpful?
Marianne says
I did not experience the aggressive Sex Ed stuff in public school that she describes – in the 70s and 80s anyway. Not at all. We got almost nothing. PI loved her point that the tone of anything put out as typical “sex Ed” these days could be interpreted as a “call to arms”. Keep this job with the parents!
As a midwestern Catholic who has intentionally chosen community that supports old school values, I haven’t seen much of this fallout in my own universe, raising teens. They can be exposed to all of the worst of it on social media, or NEtflix streaming that they see with friends, or YouTube – so I see the solution to that being parents who just say “no”. Don’t give them smartphones! It’s hard enough for college kids to withstand the onslaught of worldly exposure when they get to that age. My idea is that by then, they’ve been tuned to rightly ordered things and will know whether what they see is right or wrong.
Parents, it’s a battle worth fighting. Protect innocence. Every time I’ve let my guard down, we’ve been burned. It’s hard to believe how naive some well meaning parents can be. I have family and friends who never imagined the things they’ve had to deal with, and by then it was too late.
Leila says
Marianne, I agree. It’s worth whatever it takes.
Victoria says
Sorry I’m always late to these conversations, but I keep thinking about the issue of finding the right balance between sheltering my children (which has positive connotations) and suffocating them. I guess it’s something I’m constantly trying to evaluate.
We live in a suburban neighborhood and there are a few other families here with children who all go to school. Now that schools are cancelled for the next few weeks, I expect some of those kids will be out during the day and may try to play with my kids. Knowing that most of these kids have smartphones and that the average age of exposure to porn is 7 (my oldest two kids are 8 and 5), do I let my kids play with the other kids in the neighborhood?
I thought that if I saw kids approaching our yard I could lay down our house rules that no electronic devices are allowed here and that everybody plays outdoors in the open. But is that enough? I know what other kindergartners told me about sex when I was 5-yrs-old, so I know that making those rules might not be enough. But should we be recluses from our neighbors? Can’t I talk to my children if they come to me and say, “so-and-so told me thus-and-such”? Which wouldn’t be ideal, but is it always necessarily devastating if the child feels safe discussing with a parent?
Leila says
Victoria, get to know the children in the neighborhood. Know them so that you can relate to them well and so that you will know which ones raise your antennae. Offer them cookies and milk and talk to them. Neighborhood play is best done outside, yes. When my kids were little I read something from a dad of many; he said that their rule was that their kids weren’t allowed inside the neighbors’ houses (obviously this can change when you get to know the other parents well, just good to have it out there as the default) and that play would be outside. I’ve written about how play in bedrooms is not a good idea. Not every family has that rule… and yes, check on the kids frequently (say, once an hour if they are in full throttle outside riding bikes, playing ball, etc.).
Certainly no electronics! When you see them, just say, “Run and put that back at your house and then come back — I’ll have a snack waiting for you. We don’t have electronics here but we want you to come play!”
And yes, kids will talk about sex and so on– they always have and they always will. This is why we need to cultivate those quiet times with our children where we say in a gentle and natural way, “anything on your mind? anything you would like to talk about?” and in general be aware of their mood and if there seems to be something amiss or troubling them. “You can always tell me what’s on your mind,” you can remind them in those intimate moments at night before bedtime when you are tucking them in. “I don’t always know what you are thinking, so be sure to let me know if there’s something you want to talk about.” And so on.
Victoria says
Oh, thank you. I think this makes a lot of sense, and I’m relieved because I don’t feel like we should build fortresses against our neighbors; be calm but vigilant.
Leila says
To be light to others, we have to be willing to interact with them — but on our own terms. Also, I think we need to teach our children basic common sense rules like “if you’re at someone’s house and they ask you to do something that you know daddy and I wouldn’t like, don’t do it! Just say ‘I need to run home now'” and so on. But as we have these modesty standards at home (like dressing in private and being delicate about things in general), they will not be very vulnerable to such things.
Lisa says
Good questions! It’s something I’ve wondered as well & hope someone here has some insight!
Amy A. says
I think I vote 3 volumes, though it’s close (and I will purchase it regardless of the ultimate decision). I think it would be most helpful if they were organized thematically (Care of Self, Care of Others, Care of Home? Parenting, Marriage, Homemaking?) but I’m sure there will be some thought given to that. Looking forward to reading it!
I haven’t tracked down a copy of the book yet but I will. I read it over a decade ago in college, and now that I am a wife and mom I think I’m due for a refresh. I will try to catch up.
Finally, this is a week late but last week’s link to “Self Care for Toddlers” had me literally crying with laughter! As a mom of 3 under 5, every single line rang true!
Leila says
Amy, yes — for sure. Right now I’m thinking Housekeeping (meals, laundry, Reasonably Clean House), Family (why homemaking is a womanly art, nursing the baby, discipline, family culture), and Education (homeschooling and general education ideas, including books).
Candice says
That has my vote! Then I’d know what book to pick up when. But really I’m buying it either way. 🙂
Sarah says
I like those categories too! I vote for 3 volumes.
Ingrid says
Can’t wait to read your book! 🙂
I’d vote for 3 volumes with clearly separated topics and no box. I wouldn’t know what to do with the box after removing the books and it doesn’t add any value for me.
Also, it would be great if the books could be purchased separately. Hefty books usually cost a lot and it might be necessary to spread the expense. There is a Catholic home book out that looks good but I’m not buying it because paying that much for a single book doesn’t feel acceptable. However, buying several books from the same author for a higher total is fine. It’s a psychological thing, useful for marketing. If there are several books I feel like getting more for the same price. And it’s easier to read them and take along when leaving home.
Leila M Lawler says
Moira, thank you! Do you think the book helped you understand modesty better? Did it change you on any level?
Leila M Lawler says
Rachel, agreed!
Melisa says
Leila,
Hope you’re on the mend soon. About your book, all in one is so convenient, but if it will be that hefty, I’d much prefer 3 volumes.
Wow. I hadn’t planned to read Wendy Shalit’s book, but your comments are piquing my interest. “Having jettisoned the idea of marriage, not to mention keeping The Act marital, our society can only cling to the idea of consent.” Yes! It’s a sad commentary, but true.
Also, “Suppose you just didn’t go places and be with people who are so harmful to your well-being.” This is something I learned the hard way, and am telling my children to make sure they are with people they trust. So important.
I really enjoy your “Bits and Pieces”! It is one of the first things I read on Saturday mornings.
God bless!
Melisa
Leila M. Lawler says
Thanks, Melisa! I do think this book is a must-read for parents today. The iron needs to enter your soul, as they say, and Shalit provides the thrust.
Kelsey says
I actually favor one book over three, but it doesn’t matter too much to me and won’t affect my purchasing decision!
I did read Shalit’s book for the first time in my junior year of high school. (I’m now thirty-one for reference.) I have no idea where I had heard about it, but unfortunately I do not remember being scandalized by it. I say “unfortunately” because, though I had not had a boyfriend or kissed anyone and seemed quite prudish by the standards of my peers, my innocence had already been tarnished in so many more subtle ways. I did go to public school, I did have sex ed classes, and my parents – while not exactly permissive – certainly did not shelter me from mainstream media, which was of course saturated in sexuality.
I did lend my copy of the book to my best friend, a Mormon raised in a more sheltering home than mine, and I do recall her being shocked at some of the content.
A couple of months ago, my book club read Little Women together. Would you believe it was my first time reading through the entire book?! Anyway, one of the major things I took from it was how solicitous the March parents were for preserving the innocence of their girls. I’m thinking of one of the earlier chapters where Meg goes to a fancy party with wealthy friends and they doll her up and gossip about her and Laurie… by the standards of today it is so non-shocking as to make Meg’s and her mother’s upset seem quaint, but actually the more I thought about it, the more I realized the beauty of a society where a seventeen year-old girl could still be protected as an innocent child. What a contrast to today!
Leila M. Lawler says
Kelsey, yes! I so agree. Even when we know from experience how devastating it can be not to protect young people, I fear that we are somehow indoctrinated to think we can’t do anything about it. But I think we should! It is possible to have a good environment and culture for young people, and so worth it.
Donna L. says
Dear Auntie Leila~ I’ll add you to our intentions for our Rosary and Mass today-I hope you feel better soon!
I grabbed my hardbound ‘The Gourmet Cookbook’ that has nearly 1000 pages–and do not feel it unwieldy–however, I do not generally sit and read it for hours as I imagine I would with your book, so, 3 books may be much easier to devour!
I am incredibly happy that you are writing the book I have wanted for so long–thank you in advance! 🙂
I am in the hope to get my copy of the book so I may jump in to this conversation–timely and helpful now!
Leila says
Donna, thank you! Good thoughts. *My* Gourmet cookbook is two volumes, hardback, in a box. It’s the older one. But yes, you dip in and out, not sit and read. (Although back in the day I *did* read it all the time, from cover to cover haha
Leila says
Melina, it is worth reading! 😉
Thanks for your enthusiasm for mine!
Frances says
From a nursing mother: three volumes, please! It is simply not practical to nurse a baby and hold a very large book, and so very many of us who need the book are in the baby years.
Leila says
Frances, good point. For so many years I chose my reading based on whether I could hold the book while nursing a baby!
Katie says
Agree, was scrolling down to say the very same thing. How helpful to be a size that can be balanced with one hand (or zero) and an armful of baby! I started reading the LMLD archives on my phone while nursing my first, and then eventually caught up to real time while nursing the second, and stayed up to date while nursing the third. All those hours of baby-snuggling were very enriched by considering the big ideas and the detailed practicalities of building and running a family! I can’t imagine keeping up with 900 pages at once as I moved around the house and chased toddlers.
Anamaria says
Yes, another vote for three for this reason and portability.
Clara says
I think I would prefer 1 volume… but I will buy the book either way. If it is divided into 3 volumes, I would prefer a boxed set.
I have been reading your blog since before I was Catholic, maybe 11-ish years. I have learned so much from you and so grateful.
I need to find my copy of Return to Modesty.
Clara says
I hit submit to early… I hope you feel better soon! Will add you to our family rosary.
Leila says
Thank you, Clara!
Cary says
Dear Leila,
I do hope you feel better soon and will keep you in my prayers. I vote for the three volumes, just as you mentioned above Housekeeping, Family, and Education. I will buy no matter what; but, I think of all the gift giving that will happen along with The Little Oratory!
Leila says
Thank you, Cary!
Jann Elaine says
I found this book A Return to Modesty extremely scandalous. I read the introduction, and I probably should have stopped when I got to the part about a certain celebrity teenager licking “her backup dancers butts.” But I foolishly kept going a couple hours more, skipping around in sections trying to find something- anything-edifying. Now I am unfortunately informed about the depressing rates of sexual molestation of teenage girls and lots of random cultural information about being a “Jew” (but somehow NEVER addressing any theology behind Judaism?) and disgusting information about pedophiles and incest. I also found the feeling of the book extremely dated…despite the bulging with current details intro.
Two thumbs down for this book. I’m glad you are getting something from it but seriously, I can’t for the life of me see what. Perhaps I would recommend it to an atheist who thinks modesty is an entirely outdated concept but honestly…how many of those do I know?
I love your blog and I read all the time but this was recommendation was a total dead end in my opinion.
Leila says
It’s true — it is really scandalous!
I tried to warn you…
I guess it’s a matter of being informed and having good arguments and thoughts to bring to the resistance, because what Shalit describes is ubiquitous and getting worse. I do agree that a systematic look at what theology has to say (both Jewish and Christian) would have enhanced the book.
But yes, by all means, skip if it’s not your kind of thing.
Mirtilli Rossi says
Yes, it is so scandalous!
I grew up in the world she describes (not a perfect match but similar) and I think it is really very important to know about it if you don’t already, and go really dig in and think about it if you do.
I think we parents have an obligation to do this so that we can better protect and guide our children to their own maturity. I frequently talk to mothers who have no idea and I try to explain… But it’s difficult. Having this young woman (at the time) lay it all out is helpful for organizing my own thoughts and arguments.
But it is just AWFUL to read… I feel like crying. I hope that something constructive comes along at some point because my heart is bleeding and I am very angry.
Amanda says
It is scandalous, true, but unfortunately much of what she describes is not unusual or unfamiliar to those of us who were teenagers in the 90’s. I graduated from high school in the year 2000. The climate/culture she describes was simply the backdrop of life going through the public school system. It is hard to realize how these ideas and attitudes have affected you if it was all just part of “normal” life. It is upsetting to read but I have had so many “aha!” moments reading this book.
Sarah Daniels says
Yes! I am only 5 yrs younger than the author, and I am shocked by how unaware my upbringing has made me to the insidious messages that surrounded me. This book has turned my stomach, but I am so glad to read about this topic in such a broad-view way. I am having many discussions with my husband about what it really means to raise our children to be ladies and men.
Mrs. Bee says
Take good care of yourself, Leila! And we all know you know how to: have you made a nest for yourself on the couch? 🙂 It’s become such a sweet ritual in our house: anyone who’s sick *loves* his comfy nest on the couch.
My husband says, Go for three volumes! He said that, besides the ease of reading a smaller book, it might make it less daunting psychologically… There may be something to that: Home Comforts IS a tad daunting, because the size suggests such meticulous thoroughness, and it can feel almost as if it’s nagging us a bit, us “normal” people. That kind of thoroughness is just what we want… but in smaller doses 🙂
I read this book some time after I got married, having found it among my husband’s books. I hadn’t thought about it until you suggested the idea of reading it this Lent, and now that I’ve opened it again, I know why it’s been sitting on a high shelf in our own bedroom! Definitely not the sort of information I want my teenage kids to casually happen upon on a boring afternoon. Even I find it a hard book to read…
I feel like with every paragraph I have more reasons to thank God for so many blessings, mainly the goodness of my husband, and the opportunity to homeschool our kids. My girl (13) is so sensitive… I cannot even imagine releasing her into such a jungle. One of the things I’ve been told so many times by well-meaning people (!) is that kids need to be in public school to learn about the real world, and that homeschooling them shelters them in an unhealthy way, making them totally unprepared for what they will see later. This sounds to me both cruel and cynical. We’d care more for a growing plant than for our own children? It seems nonsensical. Plus, it places such an ugly burden on the child: if you’re strong you’ll survive somehow, if you’re not strong, it’s all your fault that you’re not, you have no business needing a delicate upbringing. The book says this so many times: girls are made to feel guilty for their needs, the finger is pointed at them, THEY are the ones having a problem. Again, so cruel and perverse.
Feel better soon!
Kelsey says
I agree with you, Mrs. Bee, about all those well-meaning people and their terrible advice. How stunningly perverse it is that we assume that exposing children to the most twisted elements of our culture at such tender ages will “strengthen” them. What a joke. All it actually does is rob them of their best chances for normal happiness.
Leila says
Thanks, Mrs. Bee! I am certainly being taken care of — lying in bed as we speak so as not to infect the others. Lots of littles to run things up to me 🙂
Leila says
Thank you, Clara!
Carol Kennedy says
Leila,
Thanks for hosting this. I love the opportunity to discuss a book with other like minded or almost like minded people! While I have heard of this book before, I have never read it. I also felt a little like I needed to hide from the young folks (age 14, 15, 18) in my house while I read it! But it is helpful and very interesting. I had many thoughts, but here are a few:
* I find it interesting that her opinions and reactions to the prevailing culture were so affected by impressions that she got, and those she didn’t get. The story of the pictures of the Orthodox Jewish couple…an impression that she repeatedly set up against the world she was experiencing and that made her wonder, made her different from other girls. The protection her mother gave her from the fourth grade “health” class—there were impressions she didn’t get from that experience, that left her more able to protect herself later in high school and college. So much can depend on the impressions of a few intense experiences—the moral imagination, I suppose. Makes me even more careful than I already am that my “teen” aged children are protected from the wrong impressions.
* I was a little annoyed at her characterization of the right vs left…specifically the idea that conservatives “don’t believe feminists” and say that “boys will be boys”. I am conservative and know many conservatives and have never heard them disbelieve the reality of assaults on women on college campuses, nor dismiss them as “boys will be boys”. In fact, I have been deeply saddened by what I hear about the realities of the relationships between men and women on college campuses, or boys and girls in high school. Of course many women are assaulted and mistreated and of course many men are both guilty and falsely accused. Without the boundaries that society should be giving on chaos can ensue in relationships. I suspect most conservatives are saddened, disgusted and angry at what is happening…because they know it can be avoided. I am sure her characterization of the left is probably also a little too pat…the nature of making generalizations. (I have only heard “boys will be boys” said when it is excusing little boys being overly rough and even mean with each other, or just out of control)
* I can’t recall whether she brings this up yet, but the whole idea of feminine modesty brings me to my struggle with buying clothes for my girls (now age 14 and 18). Leaving aside the skimpiness (and downright sluttiness) of clothes, I am so tired of the “look at me” styles they have to deal with!! This goes back to when they were little—in fact, it has improved now because they fit into women’s clothing and can get things that are not all flashy, florescent, flouncy and filled with sassy sayings! Not every girl wants to be a “rock star” or even be noticed!
So I have finished part 1, though I am thinking of rereading/skimming it and look forward to part 2.
As for your book, I think I am in the three volume camp, for all the reasons others have mentioned!
Leila says
Carol, I agree about the right/left thing. It seems heavy-handed — I wonder if she was trying to diffuse any attempt to put her in the “right” camp.
Unless she’s just characterizing a knee-jerk response that “it’s the girl’s fault she got in trouble” as “right.” Not really helpful, considering how much of the book is devoted to showing that it’s the cultural left that blames the girl! It’s our liberal judges who refuse to give sentences to rapists and abusers. It’s Planned Parenthood (the darling of the Left) that breaks the laws and protects statutory rapists…
Kathleen T says
I heard “boys will be boys” all the time. Even from my own family, I suspect in that case it was an attempt to scare me.
And it isn’t always obvious, “boys will be boys” can refer to anytime an adult gives a teenage boy a pass on crossing a boundary with a girl. In most cases I think the adult viewed it as an “innocent” or awkward attempt at flirting but ignores the girl’s sense of violation. Which teaches girls their feelings don’t matter and teaches boys it is okay to push even if the girl is obviously uncomfortable. Compare that to the examples the author gave where it was unacceptable to refuse to release a girls hand or to “call on her” without permission.
Leila says
This is so odd to me. I never heard that out of the context of boys doing reckless/stupid daredevil things, unrelated to girls. Yes, to me that testifies to people abandoning the norms of civil society, as Shalit represents with the excerpts from old advice/etiquette books.
Joy Wambeke says
Definitely one volume!! Then I don’t have to get up and hunt down the other volume(s) when I want to cross reference something! I have the huge Country Encyclopedia, and I wouldn’t love it nearly as much if it were in 3 volumes.
Leila says
Yes, I see that point…
Whitney says
I could not be more excited to learn of a book of the blog!
I have been a long time reader — before I was Christian, when I became Episcopalian, when I married an abuser and suffered abuse, when I divorced him, when I converted to Catholicism, after my annulment process completed, and today as I sit on the couch by my kind-hearted husband who is planning on RCIA this upcoming fall.
With this in mind, I would prefer three volumes. I wonder, though, if someone who is not already such a fan would be willing to purchase three volumes.
The volumes would make more sense if they were vaguely separate in topic, though so many of your posts have such a holistic eye, this may not be possible. But maybe one for parenting, one for marriage, and one for homemaking.
Whatever way it is done, I think a good index would be vital. I often catch myself remembering an old post that I want to review (especially now that I am pregnant with our first!). Being able to enjoy reading it straight though and then use it as a reference book would be perfect.
Leila says
Yes, an index is vital! Definitely things will be separated by topic — if you want to hunt and peck, the blog is the place for you LOL — the book will put things where they belong, together.
Victoria says
Actually, I think someone who is unfamiliar with Leila would be more inclined to buy a smaller, first volume, presumably at a lower price-point, then spend more on a huge book from an author they didn’t know.
Lisa G. says
You’re going to have to offer it in two versions……..
Lynn says
I’m just looking forward to reading it, 1 volume or 3! Thank you for writing it!
Rosemary Callenberg says
This book sounds very good, and I wish I wasn’t reading so much else right now so I could read with you! It is going on my list for later in the year, though.
I think in a culture as broken and removed from modesty as ours, it can actually be very hard for single women who don’t have a solid community to completely avoid places and people that are bad for their well-being … I know someone who was assaulted at a Catholic Young Adult event, and someone else who did, in fact, have something slipped in her drink and thankfully was with friends who protected her and got her home. Neither of these happened in contexts that I would have felt uncomfortable in myself, and I am fairly conservative. So I am glad there is such a straw (and there was also a nail polish that changes color) … but how horrible that we live in a culture where these sort of things need to exist.
Kathleen T says
I might leave several comments on the book. I really want to discus it but with two small children, it is difficult.
This is a very difficult book for me to read. Not because it is scandalous to me but because it is so true. It is bringing back a lot of hard feelings and memories. On one hand, it is nice to realize I wasn’t crazy and have someone put some of the dots together for me. But my heart breaks for what I went through but I know I was so so so sheltered so my heartbreaks again for the poor girls who didn’t have the protection I had.
My parents were born in 1941 and I in 1983. So the straddling two worlds and not having the proper vocabulary hits home to me. My parents did as well as they could but being raised in a society that outright supported their values left them unprepared to deal with their conflict avoiding daughter who went to school in a world that undermined everything they taught me at home.
My friends didn’t understand me, I didn’t get them. She really got that right. Boys…at least in my hometown school ..were actually sweet most of the time. They treated me as a kid sister and did tell other boys to leave me alone because I wasn’t “that” type of girl. I was a perpetual child to them. Outside of that small circle of boys….completely different story.
I realized late last night, I spent most of my teens and early twenties trying to not be “worth it.” Not worth teasing, harraressing, or attacking. Not worth the trouble while there is easier pickings. I didn’t want boys to notice me and yet I desperately wanted them to notice me in a different way. And it was always our fault….we were expected to be clever and quick and as the author says “manufacture ways to prevent” boys from taking even small liberties with us. Wanting a boy to “keep the other animals off me”, yep!
She got everything right. I agree with her portrayal of the right. They are “better” than the left but they are no saints.
God help the kids now, everything I have heard is things are a million times worse. Which is obvious by how many we are losing to suicide.
Leila says
This predatory world you describe is surely not the best that we could make for our children…
Kathleen T says
I certainly hope so. It is hard to know how. I understand the fear and helplessness surrounding these issues and the lack of true leadership, I appauld you for bringing this up, for bring this book across our radar. And the boys are quickly finding themselves in the same boat as the girls. It isn’t about boys bad and girls good. It is predator vs. prey.
Maybe we should send copies to the bishops? With a note that things have only gotten worse.
Amanda says
Kathleen, I am having a very similar experience reading this book. I was not very sheltered, but I had the advantage of growing up in a small town so things were not as dramatic as some of the events she describes. There was a lot of verbal and physical harassment from the boys in my school but nothing worse, for me at least. I also think her definitions of “right” vs “left” attitudes are fixed at that point in time and have since morphed into other attitudes, at least where the “right” is concerned.
Bley says
I will read and love your book whatever form it comes in!
I read A Return to Modesty many long years ago shortly after I was married (young and pure, btw). It was shocking to me then, and it was again when I picked it up this week. As my husband would say, none of the current state of things “passes the sanity test.” I do hope we can help give our girls what I had, and what I was so blessed to receive in my marriage. It is so unusual anymore.
Leila says
It is shocking. My hope is that we won’t forget what the cost of being lax is for our precious children.
Lisa Tuckett says
I vote for one large book! A big, fat book of knowledge and comfort.
Shyla says
Oh I’m so sorry to hear you are sick! Hoping you have a quick recovery! I just ordered my book, so I’m going to be a little behind (thanks for hosting this little bits and pieces Lenten book club!) In regards to your book, I’m buying it no matter how it’s printed! Feel better! Xoxo
Leila says
Thank you!! I am already feeling better today (after two whole days in bed).
Nancy says
Coming of age in the decade of the 1970’s, we had two coed dorm on our state campus. “The Feminine Mystique” by Betty Friedan was required reading for Psychology class, along with “Total Woman” by Marabel Morgan. Planned Parenthood established a clinic two blocks from campus.
Two decades later, when our children were coming of age, phases such as “hook-up” and “friends with benefits” were commonly used. My grown-up kids today still tease me that I would not let them watch Beverly Hills 90120, as many of their peer group watched and discussed. …and they all went to CatholicHS.
I believe what is needed today is awareness. When we are aware (and not desensitized) to how this has infiltrated our culture, we can take action to protect our children and homes.We can decide what comes into our homes ( books, dress, people, internet etc). Shalit’s updated Intro brings awareness to how it is even more explosive, with the evolution of the internet, television programming, social networking, etc. Hopefully by the time the children are tweens/teens, they will have a group of friends that share their same values.
Mirtilli Rossi says
Yes! I totally agree.
Ashley says
I will be happy to purchase your book in whatever form. 🙂
My kids loved listening to “Mockingbird Hill” – they’ve been humming it all day. Thank you for sharing.
I was not familiar with the book at all until you mentioned it and I’ve found it to be an eye-opening read. I am younger than the author and somehow I got through public school without encountering some of the crazy things (like her fourth grade sex-ed class) she mentioned. Honestly, a lot of it was shocking but it strengthens my resolve to try to protect my children.
Ashley says
I’m prepping for a potluck at church and thought of you – what do you take to potlucks? Do you have a go-to? Right now, we have a potluck after Stations on Friday but I’m always at a loss as to what to take. I’m probably overthinking this, but I thought I’d ask. 🙂
Leila says
Ashley, I always overthink too!
Cheese board? Banana bread with cream cheese spread? Spinach lasagna?
japanmom says
Carrot soup? I have a friend who used to bring a soup like this: https://www.spendwithpennies.com/creamy-carrot-soup-recipe/ to the Soup and Stations at church.
E says
There is a definite balance between sheltering and preparing young people to enter the over sexualized world… I was sheltered in many ways but it placed me in a vulnerable situation at college when an overgrown boy propositioned me in class– and I had no clue as he used slang that I only understood in an innocent context. Do shelter, by all means, but if a girl is going to go into a world with overt sexualization then prepare her to meet it with eyes open.
M. says
Good Morning, Leila. About your book, I can’t wait. I’ve been reading your blog since it was in a different format, before Rosie had married. I’d prefer three volumes, please. Thank you for asking. May our Good God continue to bless you in this most worthy endeavor.
Pax,
Mary from NOLA
Leila says
Thank you, Mary!
Mrs. T says
3 volumes. Easier to hold while nursing, easier to take along during baseball practice.
But I’d certainly read either one.
Granny Faith says
Don’t forget us old lady followers of your blog!
At at my age, I no longer have nursing babies, children at home, and am done with homeschooling. I have 21 grandchildren, all home-schooled & I help out with some of them. That said, the three volume set of your book would allow me to buy the volume that most applies to my station in life. Although, in reality, I would most likely buy your book either way, and several copies to give my daughters.
I purchased “A Return to Modesty” before I read that you were featuring it in the book club, so am very happy to have your comments. I hate the book, have learned much more about our culture than I want to know, but I am glad I am reading it.
I have seen the effect in some of my grandchildren, particularly my oldest granddaughter, age 20. What a shock she received going away to public university. She ended up coming home after 1 semester and is still recovering her balance – I fear the evil she saw, yet was strangely attracted to, is still hard to overcome. So this book is challenging me to think through what is going on in our culture and how to confront it. Also I’m more informed when my adult children tell me about what they are facing raising my precious grandkids. Thanks for taking up the challenge! I look forward to your thoughts each week. You are more philosophical than me, so you point out aspects that I wouldn’t think of.
Leila says
Granny Faith — very true! the grandparents need to know what’s going on.
I would say that the vast majority of colleges out there are too toxic for most young people! It’s not a matter of not being prepared or being too sheltered. I would say that it’s a tiny minority who are so sheltered that they couldn’t be able to handle a normal worldly situation. I think it is truly a case of a massive, overwhelming barrage of toxicity.
Catherine says
Hi Leila,
Finished the book because I had the flu as well, and it was a very intense bout. I think I prefer one giant book. I have the volumes of The Tightwad Handbook and would have preferred if they had made one larger book instead of several volumes. I hope you are feeling better.
Leila says
Catherine, I do think the difference here is that it won’t be like Tightwad — just bundling up posts chronologically. It would be divided into clear categories. But I’m still undecided!
Joan Campbell says
I vote for the three volumes! You are a treasure, Leila!
Heather says
I am on Team I Will Buy It Either Way, but three manageable volumes is really appealing. Especially since the content separates so nicely into three categories.
Ann-Marie says
I vote for one volume…I can’t nurse and read, regardless. You ladies must be way better jugglers!
Gabbi says
For the LMLD book, it really would depend on the quality of the binding. As someone else commented above, when the book is bigger, i.e. a 600-pager, it’s nice to it lay flat when open. I am a bit behind on the Modesty reading but finally picked up the book last week from the library. I cried at the end of the introduction–I am reading the first edition I think–when the friend didn’t have the vocabulary to express what had happened to her. I am sure so many women are in her boat and my heart hurts for them to suffer so and then to not be able to fully process it. It was also very timely to be reading about the early sex ed. The local public school district is pushing sex ed and gender ideology earlier and earlier and is rolling out a new curriculum in the fall, over the objections of many parents and community members. So glad I have been reading this blog and preparing to homeschool because the news about this curriculum was just the nail in the coffin for the possibility of public school.
Lisa says
Thank you for introducing me to this book! I think it’s so important to think about this subject and I’m grateful to be thinking about it when my kids are still fairly young. It hasn’t been a problem so far to protect them at the ages they are now… but I’m hoping reading this book and the discussion in the comments will give me some wisdom in this area (protection and preparation) as my kids get older. But can you really truly prepare them for what goes on?!?!
I’m also finding it interesting because I didn’t realize all of this was going on in the 80s/90s… at least not to this extent (such as her Sex Ed experience). I’m younger than her, but didn’t encounter anything like it… even as a teenager – I just had fun with my friends and none of us were having sex. I’m so thankful! I also didn’t go to college or university… so I’m finding it interesting that a lot of issues going on now that I think of as newer were happening then as well.
I don’t have much to add because I’m also sick & my brain isn’t working so well!
Jamie says
This is a brilliant write-up. My friend just sent me screenshots of the new CA sex ED curriculum, and it horrible. You are correct that consent is the only “rule” and that there are 10,000 dreary rules to achieve this “consent”. But no mention of love, romance. It is all transactional, pornographic, and sad. If SB277 didn’t already force me to homeschool, this new k-12 sex ed curriculum would have pushed our family out the door. But the reality is that my children will become adults surrounded by others who have been indoctrinated this way. I will buy your book in any format.
Logan says
No mention of love or romance or even the fun of innocent flirtation! Very dreary.
Teri Pittman says
I am close to the point to recommending to my stepson that he run away from any woman that reads the “mommie” blogs. They seem to be designed to drive women away from happy marriages. I feel so sorry for how men have to struggle to stay in their children’s lives.
Logan says
I’d love to hear you expand on your comment, I’m not sure what you mean about them being designed to drive women away from happy marriages. I’m not a big blog reader beyond this one :), but I’m curious what you’ve noticed.
Victoria says
I don’t read the blogs you’re talking about; I only read Christian, homeschool blogs, but I know that culturally, in divorce scenarios, we tend to favor mothers. I’m reading “The Boy Crisis” by Farrell and Gray, and while I do NOT agree with everything in the book (Farrell is a self-avowed feminist), they make excellent points that feminism has advanced women’s options for life, but not men’s and that now the tables have turned in ways that victimize men and boys.
Logan says
Wow, so many thoughts! First, most importantly, team Tome over here!
I found myself resisting some of her examples as catastrophizing, but then I only had to think back to the Super Bowl halftime show and think… maybe this is just where we are! I do think that occasionally she pulls more assumptions out of a newsstory then is really fair. I didn’t follow her read on the example of the model turned Muslim for example.
Or she neglects other causes, like you pointed out: divorce, contraception, IVF, essentially the results of detaching the unitive from the procreative.
The best connection she made for me was the bullying girls receive at the hands of boys who weaponize the sex ed discussion.
Also, paternalism doesn’t always work. Know lots of girls from solid families that went a little crazy.
Leila says
Logan, I do think there is a danger in reacting against the obvious disaster that is this social experiment by trying to create a little cult to retreat to. For me, the remedy really is to have realistic standards and stick to them.
BUT I will also say that the danger of the world is real. It’s not that paternalism doesn’t work, but that the lure of the world is strong. One thing that I’ve tried to get across here is that you need a community (a realistic one, not a cult) that helps you raise your children past the years where they are truly like the little ducklings ready to follow anything that moves, thinking “you’re my mother!” — the years of 14-18, broadly speaking.
And those years have to be filled with *positive* experiences of community, intellectual stimulation, worship, and FUN. Real fun that makes the counterfeit very obvious. And nice clothes, not ugly ones, that make the trashy ones look like what they are — trash.
Andrea says
Dear Aunt Leila, I’m so excited about the upcoming of your book. Both ideas sound good. For me, it would be what would be better in matters of budget…
I’m reading Return to Modesty. Really, good good good points of view. I’m really enjoying it.
Hope you are better, by now.
Z says
I vote for a GIANT TOME TO RULE THEM ALL 🙂 ok sorry been watching Lord of the Rings… But, yeah one volume is my vote. And I would read 1000, 2000, or as many pages as you would share with us.