Ask Auntie Leila Corner
Baby Sleep
I've had several emails from overworked moms, tired moms, moms not knowing how they can do one more thing, and they all have this in common: an older baby and/or toddler who won't give them a good night's sleep.
I want to say that I do have an appendix in my book about this situation. I do not ever recommend sleep training an infant — I have many posts about nursing the baby, not worrying about baby sleeping with you (in fact, I recommend it!), and taking naps during the day. The infant stage is by definition one where you will most likely not be at all rested.
But seriously, that older baby/toddler needs to sleep.
Sleep is a human right! Down with tyrants, however small! These are the two books I recommend (affiliate links — I do receive a small compensation if you buy something using them, but also you can get them at the library): Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems by Dr. Richard Ferber (caveat: get your breastfeeding advice here on LMLD and our trusted sources, as always — the aim isn't to get your newborn to sleep all night) and Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Dr. Marc Weissbluth (caveat: you actually won't ruin your child for life if he has bad sleep habits as they imply here, so don't let this scare you — you can always fix things, see the Ferber book; it's just that everyone will be happier including the child in question if sleep occurs).
You could handle all your other issues if you (and your poor husband) could just get some sleep.
Before you comment: this is my position: No sleep training for infants and young babies. No pretending that older babies and toddlers aren't war criminals with one aim, viz.: to torture the family with sleep deprivation. If you happen to have had an irenic older baby who slept angelically without ever troubling you, well, God bless you.
Two-year-old Church Behavior
I don't have the energy to tackle the whole “children at Mass” thing right now, though in a way all my discipline posts contain the answer (child development is all about helping our children learn that the world outside them exists, within the context of loving firmness, and it's an ongoing process with which everyone needs to be patient and get lots of practice). But I got one email about a specific question, to wit:
Please, oh please, tell us how you managed your young children in Mass. We have had good success with our older two, but the two-year-old is throwing us for a loop!
Thank you!
Desperate Mama of Four
Here is my response, and I will say at the outset: People are basically looking for an indication that parents are a) taking care of their children and b) aware that some behaviors are not okay to ignore, as ignoring them signals your heedlessness of others. For instance, they are usually fine with one yell or some fussing that is being attended to and then ends; what makes them anxious, and not able to express themselves charitably, is ignored hollering or noisy importuning that just goes on and on.
Within this framework, there are varying degrees of impatience, selfishness, and friction on both sides, so everyone needs to just do their best, especially in our world of very few children at all, so how out of practice are we!
Dear DMoF:
Divide and conquer!
Place your bodies in strategic ways. Maybe your husband has to hold the baby while you keep the two-year-old close to you; then when the baby cries, you must switch. Keep the 2yo apart from the 4yo or whoever it is who is maybe inciting him or her to naughtiness. In other words, train a sharp eye on things and strategize beforehand (as to where to sit, near the side aisle, and so on) so your husband can make a quick getaway with the 2yo. Yes, take that miscreant entirely out of the main space — go right out into the vestibule, skipping the cry room if one unfortunately exists.
Know that 2 yos can't understand a thing about expectations… Don't fall into the trap of thinking it's about explaining things better! Yes, eventually. But right now it's like taking a monkey to Mass, what can I say.
Go to an earlier (quicker) Mass, or a later one, consistent with nap times, or sometimes separate so you don't have to struggle every single week. I learned during this time about how hungry young children get in the Mass situation; yet, a bag of cheerios is hardly the answer. Be sure to get up early enough to make a breakfast with plenty of protein and fat. One frozen waffle will surely result in a crash.
My husband spent many a Mass pacing around at the back of the church. The people who say “just do x or y” have children who are amenable to their clever strategies; many are not! They will just continue being obliviously naughty until they are older! Remember, this scenario is happening to this young child once every seven days — a habit for someone whose life has been so short up until now surely needs more practice than that.
It's just a matter of waiting it out until they can understand better, as well as working on all those other situations (visits to the library and so on) in which one cannot simply holler one's head off at will. In a year you'll have a better chance at success. Lower your standards about how much of Mass you will take in, and you may be surprised. Maybe not… but don't have high standards because you will definitely be disappointed!
Kitchen Corner
I have a floor! I love it. It's heart pine and I plan to have it finished with tung oil.
I have lighting! Almost all… still have two more fixtures to put up, one of which had to be re-wired. Can't wait to show it to you!
I had a terrible moment when the new exterior window and door trims were painted.
It's just the wrong color. It's a bit complicated, because my house colors are from California Paints, now defunct. So when Benjamin Moore, which had carried that brand, reproduces those colors, they use a formula, and the formula is not good in this case!
How it's supposed to look:
How it's not supposed to look (ignore the deck, gutter, etc):
I had a very bad feeling, a significant sinking and slowly expiring feeling, because I don't have the paint chips handy (they are somewhere but who knows where in my state of having moved all such things around) and there was no piece of trim to take in — all of it was long ago hauled away. Was I going to start mixing random cans of paint (despite being warned against this and indeed strictly forbidden by some of my offspring who know well the dangers of this, a thing I often do)?
I took the can to my paint store here, where they are super willing to help you figure out your most impossible color wishes (or is that just me). Fortunately, no one else was in the store at the time, so the two lovely owners were able to find the old fan deck and locate my color, scan it, ascertain for themselves that “this formula is not a good one,” and mix up a new can that is correct. I could have hugged them!
I am feeling much better now. I just didn't know what I was going to do!
I will say that after 14 years I still really love the colors of my house*. Also, the back here was just repainted, so it is not a matter of changing them!
*If you are interested, my house colors are California Paint Jonquil (450-91), intensified with 1/4 more added pigment, and Pale Organza (455-991) for the trim. However, it is clearly not going to work for them to just do whatever computerized formula they have in there. They have to scan the chip. The correct formula (at least for the trim) is now stored on my personal account at that paint store, though, so I am going to see if I can contact Benjamin Moore about it!
Book Corner
Old textbooks often have this delightfully conversational style that puts our present-day ones to shame. I came across this one, Calculus Made Easy, that might help your student get through what is otherwise often a scary undertaking. “What One Fool Can Do, Another Can” is its subtitle, and the first chapter is “To Deliver You from the Preliminary Terrors.”
I always recommend Arthur Robinson's articles (found on the sidebar of that link; I don't necessarily recommend his curriculum in the form it's presented there). In the essays about math, he points out that calculus is the language of physics, and will make sense in that context — when you are trying to describe something, you need the right language for the task. What's the point of learning it for its own sake? No wonder it seems formidable, even scary, since that's what we try to do.
bits & pieces
- Marxists always want to erase history and cut people off from the past, often in the meanest, seemingly pointless ways. Now they are after the names of birds, as Helen Andrews relates in this excellent article — and are succeeding.
- An important article: ‘Gender-Affirming Care Is Dangerous. I Know Because I Helped Pioneer It.’
The young people we were treating were not thriving. Instead, their lives were deteriorating. We thought, what is this? Because there wasn’t a hint in studies that this could happen. Sometimes the young people insisted their lives had improved and they were happier. But as a medical doctor, I could see that they were doing worse. They were withdrawing from all social activities. They were not making friends. They were not going to school. We continued to network with colleagues in different countries who said they were seeing the same things.
I attempted to address the rising international concerns about pediatric gender transition at this year’s annual conference of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. But the two proposed panels were rejected by the academy. This is highly disturbing. Science does not progress through silencing. Doctors who refuse to consider evidence presented by critics are putting patient safety at risk.
from the archives
- Speaking of curriculum: here's my review of a series on the lectures of Faraday for your science curriculum.
Note that the authors offer the PDF version of the book for free, and the videos are embedded in my post. This is a really excellent addition to your science classes, highly recommended.
- Here's my long, long post about vision in the homeschool — I talk about the Robinson Curriculum in it.
liturgical living
November is the month that brings with it a sense of our impending death and turns our minds to those who have gone before us. This week (counting from All Soul's Day) we can obtain a plenary indulgence for those in Purgatory under the usual conditions, including by visiting a cemetery. Let's not skip ahead to Christmas, lest we lose these opportunities to draw closer to God in the liturgy!
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Annie says
Here has been what’s worked for us so far with young toddlers at mass- all are so dependent on situation-
-when we had twin babies/young toddlers who took a morning nap, we… split up for mass and let them nap at their usual time, and each parent went on their own for age 9ish-15ish months, and at age 2 years while potty training them. Couldn’t pull that off for subsequent children but for the oldest child(ren) it helped!
-when we went to an old, beautiful church with side altars and no cry room, I brought the offending 1yo to a side altar, where she was suitably distracted by the beautiful statues and candles and prayer cards and kneelers, quieter but not quite “getting away with” anything because we were still in a prayerful space and not running around doing whatever she wanted
-now with a new 1 year old at a newer church with no side aisles, he similarly just desperately wants to walk around and escape. I don’t let him- I do everything I can to keep him engaged with something (book, quiet toy, prayer card or other piece of paper he might like to play with, the kneeler, the kind person sitting behind us who will smile at and engage him), and after those options are exhausted, we walk around the perimeter of the church and look at the stained glass,, and when that is exhausted we go stand in the narthex, but I am always holding him as what he most wants is to be able to walk around.
-for my older kids once they got to be 2-2.5 it has really worked to sit up front where they can see what’s happening, and to quietly explain to them what is happening in the mass. It doesn’t end all naughty or restless behavior or loud talking, but it does help a lot I think.
-mass bag full of quiet activities!
-constant reaching and reminding to “whisper!”
-remembering to “act, don’t react” as auntie Leila would say- including not reacting to the perceived mean glances from others by parenting in a way you would not normally do in order to please people you don’t even know!!
Amy A. says
Annie, your comment calls out something that took me far too long to catch on to – don’t let them roam freely if they have to be removed from Mass for misbehavior! This is an incentive! Once my husband and I caught wise to the fact that our twin toddlers were cutting up in order to get to wander around the narthex instead of having to stay in the pew, the new rule was “We hold you while standing in front of a blank wall in the hallway until you are ready to return, and we will do this as many times as necessary!” It took me FAR too long to make this connection but once I did there was, er, modest improvement 😉
Annie says
Oh my gosh, yes!! One of my twins in particular, I had to at some point draw the line that if she said she had to go to the bathroom, I would be carrying her back because I got the idea that she just liked running up the aisle. She has been pretty much curbed of that habit by now but she’s got a younger brother who seems to have the same M.O.!!
Sara says
Yay kitchen floor! It looks wonderful!
We moved house and went from going to a ‘modern’ church with 20th century architecture and lots of guitar music (the only Catholic church in our town) to attending a large stone cathedral with an organ and a choir singing what my husband would call ‘proper’ church music. It seemed to really hush my three year old and one year old and I was surprised how much better they behaved in a different environment.
Sarah says
We’ve similarly tried everything at church – crayons, drawing, quiet stuffed toys. Nothing succeeded in letting anyone of us pay any attention to the service. Then my husband happily gave an ultimatum that we were just going to sit and participate in the service. I thought he was crazy. There’s enough sitting and standing and hand folding and all to keep them busy, and happily we have two readers who can follow hymns. It sure doesn’t work for everyone, and I’m shocked it worked for us. Context, we have five boys, 8,6,4,2, new. We don’t do perfectly, by any means, but we all get slightly more attention on the service. Thank God for liturgy and repetition!
That being said, friends manage just fine with crayons and drawing, and holding offenders in arms in the narthex. There’s more than one way to manage, and we have to adapt also. The goal stays the same though.
Leigh says
Yes, my husband at one point banned all toys and books (always being fought over!) and… it helped! Less time was spent negotiating turns and hunting down tossed and dropped items.
Alternatively, no toys until they (understandably) start to squirm during the homily. They usually do ok for a little while with all the music and sitting and standing but that long stretch is the hardest. Also, if you bring out the toys from the beginning, they’ll be bored of them by the homily when you really need them!
Melissa says
Yes! After trying the crayons/paper/toys etc for the first few early years, we now don’t bring anything for mass except maybe a book for the toddler. It’s so much better without having to negotiate who gets what and have stuff to deal with. Our oldest is 11 now, and we have six kids, and we rarely have to leave the pew. Occasionally the 10 month old has to get taken out if he’s fussing, otherwise I am shocked to find that we mostly get to pay attention and stay in! All this to say, hang in there moms of only babies and toddlers!
Belle says
Yes, my two year old (boy) loves throwing things. After almost chucking a stuffy at our priest mid gospel reading, I stopped bringing any toys to church. I also entrust the baby’s diaper bag to the lovely grandmas who sit behind us to prevent the taking out and throwing of all diaper bag items. The grandmas occasionally also take the baby. This has all helped tremendously.
Leone says
My mother always says, and I have found it to be true: there are 104 Sundays between age 1 and 3. These will be the hardest Sundays for each child. Count them down. These Sundays are not “for” you; you have, hopefully, had time pre-children to pay full attention, and God willing you will have years after to pay attention.
These 104 Sundays are for your child, and you do what it takes: church bag, quiet removals, humility, a stop at the park before church to run off some energy (no sleeping in – this Sunday is not for you). On the way to church, pretend not to know how to act (“when everyone stands up, I am going to crawl on the pew behind them” – “NO, Mama, you have to stand up too!”) so the child feels proud of their knowledge and eager to show off how they can behave, and after church tell your children what a joy it was to worship with all them. Even when they were hooligans. Which they will be. For, now, 103 more Sundays.
Katie says
I bring a small zip lock of cheerios to Mass and hand them one at a time to my 3 yr old and 1 yr old without shame. Doesn’t last the whole Mass but it buys us some time in the pews. I used to be very anti cry room (I still think they can be misused,) but the new ones at our parish turned out to be a great place to nurse a baby for those of us who (also without shame) can’t nurse in a crowd.
Michelle says
We went to an old Church without a cry room, and my mom did occasionally nurse in the Confessional. My parents also had bowls of cheerios for the young kids in the car on the way to Mass, and a bag of religious picture books for the 1-5 year olds (give or take). With my own 4 little girls, they each have a wooden or plastic Rosary in a small zipper case (a favorite toy for the youngest to pull out and put back in.) My husband, to keep our 3 year old’s attention at the Consecration, pointed out the light that reflects off the Paten onto the ceiling. It makes three little dancing patches of light which my daughter calls angels. So she always watches forvthe angels. And yes, kind people who are willing to smile and engage the babies quietly are a blessing. We had old Polish ladies who came an hour early for the next Mass, and stood in the back (where my mom or I would be holding my fussy baby sister) and smile and coo to her until she fell asleep. It worked like a charm! 😀
Katie says
Also there is such an emphasis on “participation” at Mass now that I think we feel guilty if we cannot make all the reponses or pay perfect attention. We have lost sight of just BEING there within the confines of our own vocation (aka parenthood and babies). There is more than one way to participate at Mass.
Murielle says
Yay traditional Christmas cards! Deirdre’s post is encouraging to me because I’d noticed the same trend in recent years. I actually sell traditional cards on my Etsy shop and was wondering if it’s worth it to keep trying. They’re not printed with great Western art, just my art, but it is something I enjoy doing! I feel like the prices might be a bit high, but my husband says “Don’t sell yourself short!” I also think there might be a market for traditional and actually lovely Catholic sacrament cards… so that is a project I have in mind for the future. I currently have a custom option on the shop (for an original, hand-painted card) but it is pricey. Printed versions could be much cheaper, especially ordered in bulk. Here’s the link in case you feel inclined to take a look 😉
https://desertshipofbeauty.etsy.com/
Laura says
I have co-slept with all six of my babies and find that they naturally night wean and transition to sleeping on their own, one as early as two months(!!), most around a year, and my latest, #6…well, I almost despaired of him doing so, but around 19 months he started sleeping all night in his crib (in our room). I start the transition by nursing baby to sleep in my bed and then moving him to the crib when he’s asleep. Sometimes he would cry in the night – I would get him and he’d join us in bed, where he would nurse back to sleep, but eventually he started sleeping all night long in his crib. He also took naps there. I think sleep is different for everyone and probably very dependent on the child, but this approach has worked well for all six of my kids. Once transitioned from our bed and bedroom, none of them would wake us in the night unless they were sick.
Emily says
I’ve had the same experience! Bed sharing in those first months had led to the children developing their own sleep rhythm at night. Just nurse in bed while you and baby sleep. At some point when you notice they seem to bed not nursing as much at night start transitioning to their own bed. And at some point they will just sleep the whole night in that crib. For me, between 6-8 months this happens. Also when you hear then wake up crying give it 5-10 minutes to see if they are really awake and want you or just sort of “sleep crying.” Again, I do this at 6-8 months, not younger! For me it has worked to have their in their own room after they transition to a crib. They just like it better. We have tried having the crib in our room but we end up disturbing them. Once they’re 2-3 yrs I let the baby share the room with older siblings.
If I could share what I’ve learned, I would tell a parent- don’t think bed sharing will make your baby reliant on you at night. It may actually help them develop the habit and desire to sleep at night in those early months. They’ll start to care less about where they are and who they’re with, and their body will just naturally know to sleep at that time.
Again, I know this is very personal for many, but it has worked for me! The biggest advice is to just be willing to try something different or maybe be willing to look at what your principles really are or rethink those principles…
Now I will be taking any and all church behavior advice, because sadly that is not quite my strength. I got lucky with my son! My daughters are quite challenging!
Caitlin says
Emily, I have had very similar experiences with my five… the youngest is currently in my bed (he is 7 months old) but starts off the night in a crib in my room (there’s no other place for it at this point, ha ha!) However, I feel like I wake him when I come in to sleep. Some shuffling may be in order!
Laura says
I have had a range of experiences with kids at Mass and definitely know what you mean by strategizing. I’ve also made some blunders, for a while I thought quiet coloring would be ok until the day my four year old rolled out an array of craft supplies on the pew and I realized craft hour during Mass was pretty inappropriate. Embarrassing. Later I actually returned to quiet coloring for my girls with crayon rolls and only during the Liturgy of the Word. I asked them to please be quiet and do their best to listen during the Consecration and say some prayers following Communion (which they weren’t yet old enough to receive). Maybe they did that. Now we attend a different rite and they are a little older and their behavior is very different.
My situation is complicated by the fact that my husband is not attending Mass with us. I found out last year that I was pregnant with twins and the logistic I was most worried about was getting through Liturgy on my own with six kids and three under two years old. I am a revert who did not grow up in an environment that talked frankly about God, so I feel clumsy saying this, but God has been helping me take my family to Mass so much. My big kids can meet my behavior expectations and the tiny parish we attend has gone out of their way to help me with the babies. It’s touching and humbling. I don’t expect the specifics of our Mass participation will stay exactly the same over the years, but I have a lot of hope that we will make it work!
Nicole says
I love all the practical chat! And I think your sleep advice is spot on (I wish I’d read it ten years ago, though!). I used to be so afraid of any kind of sleep training (I had had it impressed upon me that any kind of crying from an older baby was bad!), but my husband, with backup from the books you mentioned (as well as a recent one called The Happy Sleeper which is really similar to Ferber and very balanced) convinced me that getting a 6 month old to learn to fall asleep independently was both good and necessary for our family’s wellbeing. This was an area in which I had to let go of control and trust/submit to what he was saying. He was right— those older babies were actually overstimulated by my presence after a certain age, and were basically asking me to learn, with a gentle progression, how to fall asleep (yes, they cried! The Purgative Way! 😜 But it was always just the first couple times and with all the reassurance. Then they were off to the races and were sooo much happier and well rested!). I don’t function well with months upon months of sleep deprivation, so this has taken a lot of dread out of subsequent pregnancies (knowing the sleep deprivation has an end date sooner than I’d previously thought!).
Rozy says
On church with children: My best advice is to practice church behavior at home; that is, practice sitting still and quiet listening to sacred music or a recorded sermon at home, so that the child learns what to expect and what is acceptable at church. We don’t train behavior at church, we train it at home. Determine ages for things, such as after the age of 18 mos to 24 mos. no snacks, after the age of 3 no toys, just a simple pencil and paper, after the age of 8 (or whatever confirmation age is at your church) the child has to listen and participate and remember what the main points or text was. Meal times and prayer times at home are wonderful times for practicing reverent behaviors, as well as good manners. And always remember that children are on an 18 year training program so be patient and practice, practice, practice at home.
When our five children (oldest was a girl, the rest boys) were ages 14, 12, 10, 7, 5, we went to a symphony concert at a beautiful hall. At the intermission the woman behind me said, “Those are the best behaved children I’ve ever seen.” I replied, “We practice a lot at home.” It was a nice parental payday for us!
Cirelo says
Agree with you here! Practice! It almost isn’t even fair to expect a small child that has never been taught any self-control to rein it in for Mass. also, The strong-willed child needs more attention in this area, not less because he needs help learning to train his will. I love how Charlotte Mason pointed out that the so-called strong willed child actually has a weak will because he is acting out of pure emotion not reason. We can help with that but the practice happens at home! A young mother asked me how I got my little ones to sit calmly with me during Mass and I said often I practice at home making them sit quietly on my lap. Like if I’m at the computer and my 18 mo old wants to climb in my lap while I write emails, I pick him up but he has to sit quietly not grabbing or talking and I keep him there a bit longer than he wants so he gets used to being restrained by me. Little things like that. I think people get scared of being the boss, but your children need you to be the boss and teach them how to behave.
Caroline says
Thank you for linking to the previous blog post about Christmas cards. I have been looking (and failing) to find cards at the big name online photo print shops with a clearly religious Christian Christmas message that would let me insert my family’s photo. I’ve had to resort to creating my own the last few years, and I haven’t been completely happy. I love the idea of sending a card with actual Christian artwork along with a separate family photo. Perfect!
bethanne says
I entered into our marriage as a non-Catholic (now Catholic for 20 years) and took my promise seriously to raise the children Catholic. This will sound crazy, but in order for me to understand the Mass and what was going on, I made them a Mass binder (with pictures of them in it) and we actually “practiced” going to Mass at home just like Rozy said above. (And I don’t mean the Montessori Mass set, I mean just responses and postures of prayer expected at Mass.) I had 4 boys in 5 years–and 3 more girls after that and we went through the Mass binder that was explained in very simple terms by me with my husband’s imprimatur. When I was a young mother and creative, I could do such things. I’m sure there were little missals I could have bought, but they liked seeing themselves in the binder. We had some rules–we sit when everyone sits, we stand when everyone stands, and we kneel when everyone kneels and it is our job to love other people and Jesus by being quiet so that people (even us) can hear God talking. When we would see people in church kneeling, we would touch our fingers to our ears as we had practiced at home which meant: they are listening to God. I think I felt like it was a sort of “adventure” into a new world each Mass and I was determined to speak the language and learn the customs of this new land and my sons and I sort of learned together. I always found my kids wanted to learn and it wasn’t boring when they knew what was coming. Even toddlers enjoy the practice and the “good jobs” from older brothers or sisters. We also always went to the bathroom before Mass, so we had to get there even earlier to first have a bathroom break and then go and prepare for Mass. And we rarely, if ever, gave permission to go during as everyone had already gone, so the asking became non-existent.
Leah says
Commenting as the wife of a pastor in a conservative Lutheran congregation with 4 (and one on the way) young children – For mothers whose husbands either can’t or unfortunately choose not to worship alongside you:
– As Rozy commented, practice proper behaviors at home. I became so much less anxious over behavior during worship once I realized that Sunday morning is simply the fruit of my parenting Monday-Saturday. A chance for me to observe what things my children still needed me to help them learn. I’m sure it’s completely bewildering to a child to only be expected to sit still and quietly for one strange hour per week.
– Relatedly, if your children can learn to read as early as they are able, their participation is greatly helped. Singing hymns is accessible! Participating in the conversation of the liturgy is possible!
– Teach your children throughout the week the canticles or other hymns which are sung on a regular basis. “I know this one!” is a cry of delight that I and the people behind me love to hear.
– Find a friend! I keep my eyes out for trustworthy grandparent-age or single women who are eager to hold a baby. Once I thrust a young one upon a young teenage girl in my 8-months-pregnant rush to the bathroom with “Have you held a baby before?” Nothing crazy happened in the 1.5 minutes he was in her care.
-I’m thankful for Katie’s comment. Mass or the Divine Service as Lutherans say, is not a cognitive exercise. It is communion with God and one another. Our children participate in this as well, even when it seems they are beyond hope of ever enjoying the service. Trust in Christ to work through his work.
Sally says
I often think about St. Therese’s experience of going to Mass with her father when she was a young child. She talks about how she was often moved by the sermons, but she most enjoyed watching her father’s face – seeing in it his great devotion to God. I realize that she was probably 5-6 years old when she said this and Auntie Leila is talking about 2 year-olds, but I think there is still some insight to be gained. If we expend all of our energy on helping the child behave at Mass, will he think Mass is all about him? I take the children to daily Mass with me often (ages 5, 3, and 1) and I do have clear rules and strategize pew placement, time, etc. as Auntie Leila suggests, but I also have a healthy sense of detachment (not sure if that’s the right word) about the kids’ behavior. If I need to take the littlest to the back or even out, I do — but I don’t worry or even think about it too much. I’m not primarily at Mass for them and so I must take my primary focus off of them and onto Him in order for that to be true.
Leila says
Yes, I have written a lot about this — we need to not focus so much on our children.
This mom said her older two were fine.
There are 2-year-olds who are well nigh impossible at Mass and that was what I was addressing!
Sally says
Yes — sorry if I’ve made it seem that I did not agree with your advice. It’s spot on. With my first two (girls), I practiced this “detachment” but they also mostly behaved. There was a small part of me that thought that it was just a matter of teaching your 2 year-old certain things and then, Voila!, decent Mass behavior. My third has humbled me 🙂 Sometimes it’s simply a matter of managing the “monkey” so I can get to Mass. I’ll help him understand when he’s a bit older as you say.
I guess some of the comments above gave me the impression that your point had not been fully understood and it’s a good one!!
Leila says
Thanks, Sally, I appreciate your comments.
PSA to all: for some weird reason that I can’t solve, I can’t actually leave a comment on my own blog! I can only respond.
So I was in part responding to all, in this latest comment.
As I said in the post, one must “strategize” and there are great comments here on that. Parents can be nervous about their children’s behavior and I think these ideas are fine. Some parents are oblivious or feel helpless, and sometimes it’s good to know that a 2 yo is just not that susceptible to “training” AT MASS. They are of course going to learn all the things eventually, mostly elsewhere — the question is just how much are you going to make everyone around you suffer! It is okay to admit that those around us might not wish to be subjected to an hour (or more) of yelling etc.
And then there are the parents whose 2 yos are fine, however nervous they feel… it’s a balancing act and as I said, we have to be patient with each other.
I would also remind people that some “glances” you might receive are not meant to be judgey– sometimes it comes across that way but it’s not. And sometimes the judgement is along the lines I mentioned in the post. We have to ask ourselves if we are projecting an attitude of not being willing to teach our children to take others’ well being into account.
The overall principle in worship and prayer is that we are there for God. I like what you said about “detaching” – but then, there are some intentionally “detached” parents who are ignoring their 8-12 yos’ horrible behavior! In the most beautiful churches with the most reverent liturgies and best music! So what is Auntie Leila to do, I ask you, LOL!
Victoria Bako says
I really like this concept of “detachment,” which I think is really about detachment from the child and attachment to the Lord during worship, which the parent projects in his/her attitude and demeanor. Our kids pick up on our body language. They need to sense our calm assurance that its right and very much okay to sit and just take it all in. I find that the kids behave a lot better for me than they do for dear husband, who tends to be anxious and over-concerned with them–but he’s working on it, because he’s a good dad like that. 🙂
This is the little exercise I use: I try to close my eyes, and imagine I’m another person in another pew, and if the kids’ behavior isn’t distracting my pretend person, then I can probably let it go (I’m a perfectionist prone to nit picking, so this is the direction my thoughts need to move). If they are acting like they are on a carnival ride: it’s time to head out to the narthex and address the behavior in a way that makes sense for that person and their age and stage.
If a child is of communing age or older, I expect more from that child. I slowly introduce these ideas over the years and pick something to work on with a younger one: face the front, sit when everyone sits, kneel (or stand, my kids are so short!) when everyone kneels, follow along if you can read, or say the responses that you have (hopefully) memorized.
Also, as a general comment to parents who bring snacks to church…consider how upsetting your use of snacks might be to other kids in the pews. Imagine another child who probably also has a snack mid-morning the other 6 days of the week, and now is trapped in the pew behind you watching your child eat away all of mass. Or worse: tossing food all over the pew just in reach. It’s truly unfair! And it sends the wrong message to your child about the importance and the non-ordinariness of what we are doing here. I know it’s tough, but kids can learn, and they won’t be harmed, you just have to have confidence in that and not let your emotions get the better of you.
Leone says
We are firmly on the “no snacks” side, on account of 1 Corinthians 11:
20 So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21 for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
I understand what the Corinthians were up to is different than passing a toddler Cheerios but it’s an easy line to draw.
Michelle says
To Leone:
Haha! My parents were always against snacks in Church. In the car on the way, but not inside. One of my sisters, at 2-3 years old, was offered cheerios by a kind parent sitting behind us. She gave a VERY decided negative, implying “how dare you suggest eating in CHURCH!” (There is a reason we nicknamed her Mother Superior)
Kristi says
I kind of love The Free Press — they often are on the money! Praying for their eyes to be opened even more …
Caitlin says
Oh, I love Auntie Corner! I am going to email you a question about board games…
Re: children at mass, my husband and I have taken to standing in separate areas so certain clingy preschoolers (not really, actually dependent on Mom, just bossy!) can’t interact with me. The three and four year old fight over me and want to be held, while the actual baby needs to be held. I feel this solution is not going to be Auntie Leila approved 😉 although, in my defense, in the Orthodox church (we are Orthodox) it is traditional for the men and women to stand on opposite sides of the church. I feel like Kristin Lavransdottir did the same, so maybe it was a universal church thing at some point… of course, in this situation, I’m pretty sure all the children would be with the mother, so really I’m not even being super traditional at all, ha ha!
Oh, we also have attained the age where we can send one off on altar boy duties on some weeks, so there’s that! One accounted for and not causing trouble…
Mary Keane says
Yes! In our parish, altar boys who are not scheduled to serve may still dress and sit in choir. So now I have two out of my hair! It truly is incentive to get to Mass a little early… That might not make me look good here but they really do pay attention more up there. And they don’t think they can get away with punching each other. The little boys (3 and 2) also look for their brothers serving at the altar, in addition to the usual pointing out the crucifix, candles, liturgical color for today… The two girls (11 and 6) aren’t really all that impressed, but honestly they were never my problem.
Usually, though, the little boys don’t make it all the way through Mass and they spend a good chunk of it in the back with Daddy. They also are very clingy to Mommy and get really vocal about it sometime around the homily. They fight each other for who gets my lap or held by me. So our they go. I just may try splitting up from the get go!
Michelle says
Thank you Auntie Leila. It is a struggle to take the little ones to Mass, and the 1-2 year olds are the most troublesome. An encouraging story for those who feel everyone is judging or annoyed: when my ildest was about 3 or 4 (old enough to know better) I had to take her to Church myself (I think thec2 year old was sick, so my husband was home with her). Anyway, she was, in my (probably abit too idealistic) opinion TERRIBLE. She woukd not sit, or pay any attention, kept asking unrelated questions, etc. I had to take her to stand in the back (and she was old enoughthat tgis should not have been necessary. So after Mass I told her “you have to apologize to the priest for beibg so distracting to everyone.” I walked her to the Sacristy, and greeted Father and told her to apologize, which she did. Abd this Blessed proest (from Nigeria) said there was no need to apologize. “Let them dance and sing. This is their Father’s house!”
My frustration dissolved in silent laughter. Father’s comment helped put my own perspective in order. I still expect good, quiet behavior, but I can remind myself we are all here for God, andHe knows none of us are perfect.
Josephine says
So many great suggestions. The only thing I can add is practice in another quiet space during the week. Go light candles after morning mass (attended or not….shh, feather feet etc), go to the library or a read out loud that requires sitting still and whispering.
You got this! It will not last forever and as one deacon reminds us, ask for some quiet time in the afternoon to reflect on the gospel reading because Jesus knows you heard a whole three seconds of it
Donna L. says
Oooo! “Feather feet” I am going to steal this wonderful phrase for my darlings-thank you!
Mrs. T says
I love you, Auntie Leila. Dearly. I’ve been following you for nine years. You have saved me on several occasions.
But I disagree with you on the sleep training! I find imperative, especially when done gently.
Leila says
Not sure what you find imperative (garbled comment?) but let me state: IF baby can be led to sleep gently, yay! I am not against methods that get results in the realm of gentleness.
What I like about the second book I recommend up there is its forthright acknowledgement that some children just. won’t. sleep. It’s not that they WILL sleep if you have them in bed etc. It’s that NOTHING [gentle] you do results in any sort of nighttime sleep for ANYONE.
And that’s where Dr. Ferber comes in.
Mrs. B says
My kids are almost all choleric and they get that way sooner than other people’s do- they want to sleep but they just won’t be soothed!! I try all the gentle things to no avail. So thank god for my husband who tells me to just let them cry so they can at least learn when they are crying (vs crying because overtired despite the soothing!). I am firmly for gentle methods… when they work. 😂
Morgen Theobald says
I always say it is like I brought a box of adorable kittens to church with me, dumped them out, and told them to behave themselves nicely, and then after mass when they did NOT behave themselves, I scold them. Oh kittens look what you did! Thankfully I have the perspective of very well behaved 13 and ten year olds and fairly well behaved 7 and 4 year olds to help me when my almost 2 year old and 5 month old are crying, with the almost 2 year old being particularly embarrassing (shouting OW if we try to redirect her, crawling under the pew to visit other aisles, etc). I am going to try all of your ideas, but I will say for my part we have had better luck bringing zero toys or snacks with us as they seem to just add another way to act up!
Dixie says
I wish parenting resources would make this sort of distinction by age (whether for sleep, behavior, or anything else). Newborn and older baby and toddler are all different stages of development with different needs and abilities. I appreciate your doing that here, Leila!
When I had my first baby in 2011, in any case, the sleep training people made no such distinctions, and neither did the bedsharing people. Everybody was sure their way was right for every baby of every age and every temperament in every family and if you didn’t do it their way TERRIBLE THINGS WOULD OCCUR. Imagine the havoc that wreaks on a young mom with no family support and little experience and a particularly fussy baby.
I have found I just have to sort of watch my own and my babies’ cues. With each baby, I’ve hit a point where I can’t sleep with the baby in bed with me. It got earlier with each baby. Fine! Time for the crib. With my fourth, I had to start taking a sleep medication and so I had to move her to the crib all of a sudden much earlier (7 weeks) than I would have otherwise, as I wasn’t going to bedshare while taking a sedative. Well, she did just fine! Such a balm for my nervous heart.
This comment is also partly to encourage any moms who are reading who find that bedsharing doesn’t work well for them, whether in the short-term or in the long-term. I know that sometimes lovely, well-intentioned, enthusiastic comment-section comments about how amazing bedsharing is for a particular family can feel a little dispiriting for those for whom it is not such a panacea.
It’s okay if bedsharing doesn’t work for you for one reason or another. It doesn’t mean you’re inadequate; it just means it’s time to be flexible and try some different sleeping arrangements until something works for you. Go ahead and pay attention to your needs and those of your babies!
Mrs T says
I agree very much with this.
Paying attention to your baby’s cues and “learning” your baby are key.
My 8th was an incredibly fussy baby. It was pure torture to bed share. I slipped into depression from the lack of sleep. I could not function. I finally consulted a sleep consultant at 4-1/2 months. Due to maternal hormones and poor sleep, I could not make a good decision and she guided me along. Within five days he was sleeping 11 hrs straight with two solid naps during the day. Heaven! Money well spent.
We currently room share with our 11 week old (9th). I have trained her, gently, to go to bed at 7 pm (same as the rest of the younger crew). It is a blessing to have quiet evenings. Adults need their time to recharge. She is currently waking only once at night, after a stint of sickness. She is nursed, then put back in her crib. All naps are in her crib. She has learned to soothe herself to sleep. Good habits can be started early! You’ll see patterns slowly start to emerge.
I think one mistake many parents make is to keep their babies up for too long! Especially a newborn. Up to three months, a baby can only stay awake for about 50 minutes. They get fussy, and they are ready for bed again. At three months it’s generally an hour and a half, at four months two hours. These are approximations, but close. Keep that in mind, and you will have an easier time with your baby. Your easiest nap will be in the morning, approximately one hour after they wake.
I know popular opinion is to not put a baby on their stomach, but I do all the time! They can reach their hands easily to suck on. If they have a gas bubble, it’s easier to work it out. If they spit up, it’s safer.
In the evening, you can keep them up for longer, to facilitate a better nights sleep. It takes time and patience. But gentle training is very helpful.
I also schedule nursings, with flexibility. I find this is best for me and the baby. I cannot longer nurse on demand, I find it too frustrating.
Nicole says
Thank you for this perspective!! I too have really struggled with mental health with almost all my babies being horrible sleepers in those early months (between 2.5-6 months old), and this is where just continuing to nurse them constantly was actually counterproductive! I needed a predictable amount of daytime sleep that took place outside of my arms and when that wasn’t happening it ended up in a very very fussy and overtired baby and really strung out me! You are right: their sleep needs are immense early on and with a busy household, they are often staying up way too long. Some babies do just fine with car naps, short nursing naps, etc, but others don’t , and it’s so important to be attuned to that rather than (like I did with the first couple!) just continue doing what wasn’t working because someone else had said that was “best”! Also, completely agree about stomach sleeping! If the baby is monitored and checked in on, this helps with so many issues.
Michelle says
Amen! My 4 have always slept on their stomachs as soon as they could roll over. So with my fourth, I just let her sleep on her stomach right away. We shared a room, I checked on her often, and she is my best sleeper. (Truly, the only one I could carry in from the car asleep and put her in bed still out. ) partly personality, but she was much more comfortable on her stomach and we both slept much better.
MG says
I agree with this. Something that our family has found very helpful is to have the crib set up as a “sidecar” in the very early months. That way baby is basically in bed with you, when that’s what you want, and they are still in their own space and building toward being ready to let you sleep again.
Mrs. T says
Yes, that’s what I do. A crib near the bed. Sure, there are times when I doze off during the night when nursing her, but as soon as I wake up, she goes back in to her crib.
Mrs B says
If I’m blessed with another baby I want your email for sleep help. None of mine have responded well to the gentle methods- which would be fine if i could get them to at least 6 months old. But I can’t- the last one I really tried hard, but I was spending hours soothing him because he wanted to go to bed by 7 but couldn’t stay asleep on his own. Finally he was crying so much my husband said let’s make the crying productive at least.
Katie says
I can’t reply to particular comments (and I should probably take that as a sign that I should just not reply at all,) but re: snacking. Totally subjective. The cranky one year old at 10am High Mass who should ordinarily napping at that time is different than a 5 year old at an 8am short Mass. (And switching Masses is not always an option.) Anyone who doesn’t do snacks is fine, but there are enough real rules in life without mistaking preferences for commandments.
Katie says
My husband likes to say, anyone who may be judging our 2yo’s behavior at Mass can just see our older (girls) sitting so nicely and praying and know that we must not be doing it all wrong.
We’ve always had daddy take misbehaving toddlers to the back–they’d much rather be with mommy (every second of every day) so going out with daddy is sufficient punishment. About 3 years ago, though, daddy started working a job that requires him to work some weekends (doctor at a hospital), and now I’m really struggling with the current 2.5yo. Our church just demolished our cry room too. (I know you don’t like cry rooms! But ours was halfway back, so I could still be near the other children in front; had a kneeler by the window with a clear view of the altar, so I could still pray and be aware of Mass; and was relatively quiet. The narthex is verrrry far away–its a long church, usually has at least a dozen babies and toddlers running around plus a long bathroom line, and you can only see the altar if you’re able to stand very strategically. What to do? :-/ )
Anyway, I liked the comment above about 104 Sundays between ages 1 to 3. Only about 18 Sundays to go here! ….and then 20 or so after that until I have a one year old again lol
Leila says
The 2 yo just has to be taken entirely out for a bit if misbehaving. If you’re solo-ing, the older children have to be instructed beforehand to sit quietly or to be ready to go out with you quietly, and you need to choose a seat with all that in mind.
I think parents need to give up on the idea that they are necessarily going to ALSO “get” something out of Mass. You are there, you are trying, you are taking care of young children. God SEES you and KNOWS you. ALL the graces flow to you, even if you are stuck out in the vestibule for a good bit of Mass. Never doubt this.
It’s all about the strategy and then being peaceful about things not going well, necessarily. And it doesn’t always work by any means, but my firm belief is that people are not troubled IF they see you are trying. What makes people crazy is thinking the parents are not even trying!
I agree with another commenter about maybe relying on a nice older mom to lend you a hand or even a watchful eye on the others if you can find one!
Katie says
Oh, don’t misunderstand me! (though maybe you’re responding to more than just me? I saw your comment about not being able to reply generally. I’m also not the Katie who made the snack comment.)–my bigger kids do great and I’m not worried about them! (but would like to be able to see them) And I am not at all worried about “getting” something out of Mass (though I’d like to say a prayer or two sometime in that hour+ lol). I do take the 2yo out entirely, it just isn’t really a punishment when she still gets to be with mommy, and its hard to enforce her just sitting still back there (because so many other toddlers are running around, and I’m wearing her baby brother). I just need a strategy in the first place! Yesterday I had some little success with making her sit on the stairs to the choir loft. We’ll figure it out eventually 🙂