I haven't done an Ask Auntie Leila in a while, and this question got me going, because the answer is both practical and metaphysical or at least goes to the real differences between men and women. (But as you will see, in some marriages it's the wife (me) who leaves her clothes on the chair, and the husband (The Chief) who never does… )
Dear Auntie Leila,
I've lapped up your advice on a reasonably clean home, but one question remains in my mind. What do you do about the husband adding to the mess? I have tried a number of approaches and currently, I just try not to touch any of his at all! Even trash! He's a grown man and he is perfectly capable of picking things up himself. And he does, on his own schedule. I also haven't been saying anything about it to him. This has actually led to more peace in our house since he doesn't feel nagged and I don't feel the need to mother him.
However, how do I get a clean and calm master bedroom with a mountain of clothes all over it that aren't really mine to pick up?
More generally, what do you do about the difference between standards of cleanliness between men and women?
Love,
Mountain [of hubby's clothes] Housewife
Dear Mrs. Mountain,
So, let's start with the radically practical: do you have wastebaskets in your most used rooms? Here at my house, only the living room and dining room don't have wastebaskets. The den, pantry, mudroom, study, all the bathrooms, and all the bedrooms do. I think there is a correlation between homes with bits of trash on the floor and no wastebaskets in the rooms.
I'm not sure what kind of trash your husband is generating on a scale that prompts you to write to Auntie Leila, but having wastebaskets (and they can be small, pretty, and definitely lined with a plastic bag) can really help with this problem. In our family, we are nose-blowing, busy, but also lazy people who cannot be motivated to jump up and throw our tissues or tags or magazine inserts into the central trash in the kitchen. Why fight it? Put a wastebasket within reach.
Likewise, in your bedroom, besides a wastebasket, do you have a hamper? I suggest a large hamper, strategically placed where his dirty clothes usually land. I also suggest, if you don't have such things, a rack of hooks on the back of the closet door or other convenient spot, a chair for temporary placement of articles, and even one of these — they are called silent butlers or valet stands:
Some people present as slobs and actually are slobs because no one taught them certain habits. Some, paradoxically, suffer from a certain degree of refinement that escapes normally tidy people. They are paralyzed by their own overthinking and thus a slob is born.
They don't want to put worn but still wearable clothing into a drawer or closet because to them, the category is all wrong. The item is not perfectly clean, their subconscious tells them, nor is it really in need of washing. It's somewhere in the middle, and so on the floor or chair (if there is a chair) it goes.
If your husband either of these creatures, true slob or undiagnosed overthinker, he needs to give himself new habits and/or recognize his sorting issue and be helped along that path to overcoming it — or at least to refraining from giving up and piling everything randomly on the floor. But if he can at least be convinced to put soiled things in the hamper, you will have moved the project along considerably.
In both cases, trash and laundry, the receptacle can be placed near where the offenses tend to occur and then gradually, over months if necessary, moved to a less obtrusive location.
Another cause of clutter is addressed in what I consider required reading, Christopher Alexander's A Pattern Language. (affiliate link) Alexander addresses the undeniable reality that people come in the door to their own home and have items they need to put down.
Instead of thwarting this inevitable occurrence by offering storage places nowhere near the door, simply place what he calls “a waist-high shelf” right there. It can be a chest of drawers, a narrow table or bench (lower than waist high but still accessible), an actual shelf bracketed to the wall, or a lidded barrel, I suppose!
It can have optimistic shallow baskets on it for collecting the various objects into some sort of order. But it all comes down to this, that the entry needs to have a spot within reach for these items one is carrying, or they will end up in the living areas or the kitchen counters, just strewn around and annoying you.
Now, as to how to address the problem. You are right that the wife shouldn't mother and/or nag, and I congratulate you for your perspicacity! I'm also proud of you for not giving way to anger or bitterness, but simply wanting to solve the problem.
The housewife can tidy up after her husband somewhat — this is her job, and there are things he does for her, such as cleaning up the trash that the raccoon got into, killing scorpions, and getting up at 2 am to go into the flooded basement to put the sump pump back on its seating when it falls over, that wouldn't stand up to the “roommate” model that so many approach marriage with.
In other words, you're not roommates who should adversarially divide up the tasks equally. It's normal for the woman to be more concerned with tidiness and the man to take on heavier tasks (which is why, by the way, it's utterly stupid for men and women to be housemates; besides chastity issues, they will default to these natural roles with none of the grace of marriage to help them over the resentment of feeling taken advantage of).
- (All that said, full disclosure, I am the chair-putter-onner of clothing in our master bedroom, and my husband is the stow-everything-awayer of our relationship.)
But all this doesn't mean you can't get him to cooperate! Here is the strategy I recommend:
First, you put the needed objects into the rooms, as described above. Wastebaskets, hampers, horizontal surfaces in key spots. Display them prominently, use them yourself, point out their existence. “Oh look! A receptacle for unwanted items!” See what transpires.
If the difficulty doesn't magically disappear, move on to Plan B, which is remarkably enough, to have a conversation about these matters, including reference to your own progress. Yes, talk about it! Without rancor, blame, scape-goating, or accusation. “Did you notice that thanks to Auntie Leila I have improved so much in my housekeeping?” You don't actually have to mention my name, of course… “I've been working hard on making our home reasonably clean and attractive — what do you think about that? I am hoping you have tracked an improvement!”
Eventually, you want him to want to affirm you in this endeavor with deeds and also to do what men do so well, solve some of your problems. “I have a little difficulty with daily clutter, though. I've tried putting in some measures like hampers and a landing spot for things we want handy, but what do you think about these things that keep turning up?” And then mention what they are. Let him figure it out. It may take time.
My Marine son-in-law says be straightforward and don't beat around the bush. “Here is this credenza I bought with your hard-earned money [he didn't quite put it that way] — please put your keys on it and your boots under it.” “See this large hamper in the middle of our bedroom? Please put your dirty clothes in it every night or at least morning, for the love–!!” “Looks like a gorilla came through here! My new hamper must be invisible!” (Humor is something men consider straightforward and helpful, yet women rarely use it, oddly.)
On other occasions, be sure to be appreciative. “Thank you so much for picking up that trash. It's amazing how much better I feel about my day when things are tidy!” “I'm grateful you used the hamper. You are the best.”
Also be appreciative in a verbal way (not just in your head) about the non-housekeeping tasks he undertakes, whatever they may be. Everyone needs to be affirmed, and I bet there are many things he does that you take for granted. “I am so relieved you spoke to the mechanic about that problem — I just am not up to dealing with that! You have the right way of taking care of it.”
I'm sure things will improve somewhat, over time. But even if they don't, I think it's in the job description of the wife to pick up after him if necessary. I realize this opinion is rather countercultural, but it's only the sense that we have other, more important things to do that makes the task unpleasant rather than peaceful. Our husbands work hard and really, he probably just doesn't see the problem. I know there are bad habits I have that I just don't see — even after having been told… and asked… and praised…
So there are some practical thoughts. You have already seen that if we tidy with love, love will prevail.
Lots of love and a big hug,
Auntie Leila
bits & pieces
- Reading in spare moments (this whole blog seems right up our alley!). Moms today tend to grab their phones when nursing the baby, but try to have interesting books (see my Library Posts for inspiration) in strategic places. Also put a reading rack in the bathroom. Five minutes here, five minutes there, adds up to a lot of reading!
- Style Reveals the Man — Joseph Epstein, excellent prose stylist, on F. L. Lucas’s book on the subject of what constitutes excellent prose, Style. I would have my high school upperclassman read this article, and I plan to search out the book as well!
- Arouca Press published my book about the Church's ancient teaching on marriage, God Has No Grandchildren.(affiliate link) This article reviews some of its recent offerings (including mine), pointing out how tempting they all are. The press focuses on recovering the patrimony of the Church.
- A new endeavor: Brownstone Institute. Looks promising.
- A long read, and a shocking but a necessary one, of lessons from revolutionary Russia: Suicide of the Liberals by Gary Saul Morson. “Revolutions never succeed without the support of wealthy, liberal, educated society. Yet revolutionaries seldom conceal that their success entails the seizure of all wealth, the suppression of dissenting opinion, and the murder of class enemies.”
My South African friend Anel sent me this lovely recording of the Our Father in Afrikaans, performed with great delicacy by the Cape Town Youth Choir:
from the archives
- Why The Little Oratory is still the book the world needs now, and not because I helped write it, but because without prayer in the home we are sunk, and for prayer we need beauty in place.
liturgical living
Today is the feast of St. Augustine, Doctor of Grace!
In the coming week, we will celebrate the feast of St. Gregory the Great — Sept. 3. If you have a St. Greg's Pocket, get together for a picnic! If not, think of starting one! If there's one near you (look at the list), but it seems like it's not active, email me to get it going. Here are my reading suggestions, which make a great jumping off point!
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Kate says
Ah so happy you sent the Onse Vader! Been looking for a good Afrikaans liedjie for our school singing. Dankie Anel en Tannie Leila.
Leila says
Yes, dankie to Tannie Anel!
Anel says
I am so humbled! Wow Kate is jy van Suid-Afrika!? Thanks for sharing this, Tannie Leila! Liefde, Tannie Anel 😍🙏🏻😍
KM Waldburger says
Tannie Anel, ek is van Durban af! And I see there another South African has commented a bit further down. Maybe we could do a St Gregory Pocket, but I have a feeling we live far apart.
Leila says
Yes, see what you can do! Even if you have your own little chat email, it will be helpful, and if you each can find others in your respective areas, you can encourage each other!
bethanne says
What I want to know is this: Never mind clothes. Which one of you leaves your pears just sitting around in laundry baskets? Is it the husband or the wife?
Kate says
I was thinking the other day that I wouldn’t get to exercise my brain with these kind of puzzles if I was single or childless. Why is the bathroom scale in the middle of the living room? Why is there a nerf gun tied to the banister? Why are the bee gloves underneath the couch? Why is the shotgun on the kitchen table?
Leila says
Kate, you are so right! How would we even know these people if we didn’t spend time sifting through these things?
Leila says
Bethanne, what else would we put the pears in?? I ask you! Easy for two people to carry, ventilated, easy to rinse off! My idea, of course haha!
Anamaria says
My husband bought me a book stand when number 2 was a baby and it really helped me to read more books! I had trouble holding books while nursing with some of my babies so it was super helpful 😊 it took me about a year to read Kristin lavranssdatter but so much better than (most of) the internet!!
(I think that was around the time I read most of your archives!)
ASB says
PS currently have Covid. Any recommendations for keeping the kids occupied/same so we can both rest and get better? We are on a good regime from the doctor but incredibly tired and the shortness of breath is crazy. We really can’t walk them down the street to the park. 2,3, 5, and 7 years old.
Dixie says
ASB, we all (there are 6 of us) had Covid at Christmas. The tiredness and shortness of breath were very intense for me, too. Really prioritize your rest, hydration, and nutrition. This is the time to let the kids watch shows and get pizza and groceries delivered. Can a friend deliver some Duplos or wooden trains to occupy the kids for a few days? A new toy can sometimes buy some time as long as the 5- and 7-year-olds can manage to set it up, etc. This might be a time when they can grow in maturity and capability. I’m sorry you’re feeling so ill!!
ASB says
Thanks, Dixie! Luckily we are getting food dropped most days- especially since the kids get cranky with a little tv 😂
Leila says
Anamaria, I used to choose my reading based on how comfortable it was to hold the book with one hand! That criterion somewhat sidelined Kristen, although I did sometimes employ a pillow! A book stand is a great idea!
Kate says
My husband is not a slob, but he’s not super organized or tidy either. We have a waste basket in our bedroom and a laundry basket. He knows how to use both. I hung hooks behind our door for the clothes that are to be worn again. I put baskets on his dresser for his odds and ends. You have to make it as easy to put things away as it is to make a mess. For awhile, my husband was letting clothes pile up on the chest at the end of our bed and I found out that if I just told him that I like to keep that clear, he was obliging. It turns out that sometimes you just have to ask nicely. I do straighten up his dresser top and go through his clothing ever so often because he wouldn’t think of it. He never thinks of making the bed if I get up earlier than him, but I figure I can’t have everything. He does regularly help with dishes and mop the floor and help with homeschooling.
Anne says
I somewhere recently heard the suggestion of a blanket rack for all of your to be worn again clothing. I have a chair in my room and I was piling not quite dirty yet clothes on the chair but then annoyed because I actually needed it as a chair. The quilt rack has been so helpful! I also hung some pretty blankets on it so when it is cleared off it is very attractive.
Leila says
This is a great idea, and there is just such a rack in Habou’s room. I might take it for myself as I clean things out of there.
Catherine says
Perfect timing as usual, Auntie Leila! I needed to be reminded about nagging, which has been creeping into my interactions more of late. My husband has a “clirty” chair, a lovely thrift store find, in the corner next to his side of the bed, on which he piles his in-between things. He’s a champ at that! But what can we do about all the socks, his and my sons’, that are dropped wherever they’re taken off? I am open to suggestions…
Amelia says
With my husband, I have said that I noticed his socks around and asked if he would like me to pick up socks left out like that or if he’s leaving them to out on purpose, to use again or something. CRUCIAL: this is done in an unmistakably sincere manner! If you can’t ask it genuinely and it’s going to come out passive-aggressive despite yourself, do not try this! If I go in with the expectation that he’s not necessarily being thoughtless/lazy, but that he quite possibly either needs my help or is doing it for a reason, he rises to the expectation and does not sink into justifying slovenliness.
I have realized that if he asks me as his wife to do these sorts of things for him, I’m truly fine with that, I just really want him to let me know, not thoughtlessly leave things about. People really do sometimes leave out things on purpose that you and I never would. It turned out that when he realized that the socks made me wonder what I should do all the time, he began mostly putting them in the hamper. If socks are left out in a place where I wonder if he’s done with them I put them on his top drawer. When I occasionally find obviously used socks I put them in the hamper as a little act of charity.
My sons are 8 and under. They’re required to pick up their own socks and I check to really hammer in the habit. If they ask why Daddy’s are out, I might say that it’s different because he’s Daddy and he asks me to take care of his socks while he focuses on providing for us. Depending upon the situation I would probably (important: not in an angry way, just in a matter-of-fact way) tell a teen that I would be happy to do things like pick up his socks, too, if he gets a job and turns over a lot of his paycheck, because this is true, I would ;-).
This is more easily said than done but I definitely find that when the rest of a room is tidy, my husband tidies up after himself rather than leaving a mess that sticks out. So keeping the bedroom decluttered and swept… and the kitchen counter and sink free of dirty dishes so that stuff is more likely to get put into the actual dishwasher… really helps. This is true for the kids as well but to a lesser extent.
Jeanne says
Thank you for your discussion of the messy husband topic! I grew up in a home where this was, sadly, a major source of contention. About the only advice from my mother on the sort of husband to marry was to find one who wasn’t messy.
Ironically, I found one who cares far more about the cleanliness of our home than I do! Some definite learning curves for both of us as we got to know each other better.
The one thing I would add would be, that if this is a source of major contention, that approaching the issue with the view of “trying to fix the husband” is probably not helpful. If the relationship is already going poorly, pointing out areas where he falls short of the wife’s ideals is probably only going to add more fuel to an already tense issue. Far better to silently do whatever is possible to alleviate the problem and bring peace to the home, before tackling it with an open discussion. And when brought to a discussion, to very consciously leave the emotions in the kitchen while working as a team to resolve the issue. (Not, “you always…” But “can we…”) If it means picking up his dirty socks and his trash every day, then goodness, you know you are being a true helpmeet! I sure wish my mom had cheerfully done that instead of drawing a line down the middle of the room and saying one side was his and one side was hers and he could solve his own mess. Not much “ours” in that.
Jeanne says
Thank you for this Ask Auntie Leila post. This was extremely helpful.
I didn’t know there were any other South African readers of this blog. Never expected to see Afrikaans here. 🙂
Anel says
I only saw your comment here now after looking for that Onse Vader here again! Where do you live? I’m in Stellenbosch. Enjoy your Sunday. X
Angela says
My father was raised by a hotel concierge and housekeeper in one, so tidying up his own things were never a concern, even when he was grown. (Except for his three years of service as a USMC corporal.) Therefore, he was king of “I’ll take this off here and leave it.” He could never seem to put his own clothes in the hamper, until one day, when I was about four (the eldest child) and my sister and I were summoned to the bathroom to “give Daddy a standing ovation for finally putting his clothes in the hamper!” I recall stomping, clapping and hallooing mightily in praise of his accomplishment. (And time my knowledge, discarded clothes STILL end up in the hamper for the most part, forty-plus years later.) I’m so glad you posted this, Auntie.
MargoB says
Christopher Alexander!! A Pattern Language! I ❤️ those ideas. Can only take bits at a time, as it is so dense, but wow, what a fantastic intellect and what such great good sense.
Kristi I. says
This is an excellent LMLD! Thanks, Leila!
I missed the First Things essay on Style — always enjoy Epstein, and the first edition of the book is available on Archive.org.
“Undiagnosed overthinker” — your explanation of this is helpful! (I now hang up clothes inside-out when they’re in-between, but my overthinking is behind some of the other messes here.)
We have small book baskets in our bathrooms.
Blayne says
Some hero has put “A Pattern Language” in tweet form 😆: https://mobile.twitter.com/apatterntolearn
It’s surely missing some context, but I have really enjoyed it!
By the way, I am so anxiously awaiting your new book! ❤️
Leila says
Thank you, Blayne! That’s great!
M says
After reading the comments I remembered a story my mom told me about my dad when he was living with some roommates before they were married. He was so bad about leaving his shoes around the house that the other guys started to collect them and hide them. Once they had most of the shoes, they lined them up all up in a line across the house. They probably made their point haha and non verbally!
Megan says
More wonderfully practical advise. I have the undiagnosed over thinker whose habits used to drive me crazy. It took me WAY to long to install 8 sturdy, attractive hooks on our bedroom and give him a chest of drawers as a nightstand. It solved my irritation immediately. Occasionally he still will leave clothes strewn about but it is no big deal to hang those on his hooks.