Tuesday night Deirdre and I saw the documentary The Dating Project. I thought it was great and naturally, I have my own two cents to contribute as well. Good news, the site now says that the movie will soon be available digitally and on DVD. I hope they make it available beyond groups and programs. I think parents, especially those whose children are not homeschooled, but who are concerned, should really watch it with their older kids (ones who already know about the hookup culture — if they don't, don't watch it with them, but instead peruse my links at the end of the post).
First, some observations as I was watching:
- The film is well done. (I am over those camera angles close up and from below. Don’t know much about movie-making but Ken Burns has a lot to answer for here, seems to me, if you are a historian or professor and not a model with perfect teeth and nostrils, but as I’m not going to be in a documentary anytime soon, we’ll let it pass). The music works well to place you in the contemporary scene while adding its own amplification of the complex feelings undergone by the subjects; the visuals are excellent; the editing keeps you involved and allows the themes to develop without forcing them.
- The professor who started it all, Kerry Cronin (along with the estimable Jesuit priest whose talk on Chastity and Courage I would love to read), is lively, cheerful, and approachable. She’s a true apostle of common sense (a good, if unexpected, quality in a philosophy professor!). Her comments are very helpful.
- The five main subjects of the film project honesty and depth. The producers must have spent hours and hours with them over a long period of time, because not only do they express what’s on their mind, they evince development and change in their thinking. There’s a sense of discovery that the viewer is participating in, which in turn helps the viewer understand better the possibly foreign concepts of simple dating being presented.
- The narrative unfolds gently. Not every point is made at first, but I emerged from the theater satisfied that the difficult topics were brought up. Porn, premarital sex, cohabitation, hookup culture — the film gets you to think about these things and to begin to take seriously the necessity of turning away from them definitively.
- It's really, really sad to see the freshmen in college, nice, sweet kids, talk about their experiences with hooking up. Even given the point made by Cronin, that hooking up can mean various activities on a scale (and, she points out, that's what makes it so appealing or successful as a concept — no one really knows what you did), the thought that it's considered normal for young people to treat intimacy as its opposite — something detached and separate from their inner selves, something they must recover from in order to regain feeling. We simply must help our society recover its sanity.
- The film takes on a lot. This is a huge topic. Just addressing the hookup culture on campus is enough material for a whole series of documentaries. But The Dating Project also looks at finding love after college, at 30 in the midst of a demanding career, and at 40 after a lifetime of evading deep relationships. It wants all the conversations to happen at once, and yet somehow it doesn’t crumple under the weight of this self-imposed challenge.
- It seems clear that the producers want to engage with the secular, sex-obsessed culture. At a basic level, Prof. Cronin’s thought boils down to, “Do daring things for the good, if for no other reason than you see that hookups aren’t working and because you trust me to have common sense — and good things will happen.” Specifically, the daring thing she has in mind is going on a date. I respect that and totally endorse.
Will the movie reach the intended audience? I have no idea.
I can see this film being embraced by church youth programs, and that makes me uneasy, because the culture of faith should work with a more precise moral vocabulary and greater clarity than this film incorporates (simply because the film does aim to reach those who have been left behind, morally speaking) (leaving aside the fact that Boston College, where Prof. Cronin teaches and offers her dating course, is a putatively Catholic institution, to its shame). “Meeting people where they are to help them come closer to the truth” isn't meant as a strategy for church, where it's reasonable to just go ahead and tell them what they need to know.
But out in the world I could see this movie being a good starting place. How to get people to watch it without feeling like they are a captive audience?
I am not sure that men will watch, just because men don't usually watch (or read) things that women really, really want them to watch. I could be wrong; I hope I am. But men need to watch it.
So I am not sure how it will fare. Since my aim here is narrower — to enliven the everyday, ordinary beauty that draws us to the Good, to encourage parents to bring up virtuous children (or at least children who know what virtue is and how to recover it if it’s lost), and only probably secondarily to help any stray unattached readers to commit to finding a spouse — I will offer, as I said, my two cents on the topic of dating (and chastity in general).
So here they are:
- The model of the “Level 1 Date” (you can download it here) is a good one for our crazy society. It's simple and people do appreciate rules for things. Beyond getting a cup of coffee or an ice cream, which are also the suggestions my husband and I made to our kids, we included this one: Invite the person you think you might be interested in on a walk. Liking walks is normative for a happy life! It has the benefit of being free (unless you get your ice cream cones and take them with you). It allows you to talk. It keeps you moving. It’s invigorating. You can walk somewhere beautiful or to something interesting. It allows you to talk without worrying excessively about your appearance or how the other person is reacting to you, but it’s not a conversational road block the way a movie is. If the person looks askance at a walk, they likely won’t be for you.
- One of the rules of Level 1 Dating, “if you ask, you pay,” is okay, but… I thought it was interesting that the women in the movie expressed the desire to be pursued. Prof. Cronin made a the argument that the Level 1 date is not courtship, it’s just coffee, and as such it’s more like a green light to be pursued, perhaps, in the future. That is a good point.
The movie really avoided addressing the difference between men and women, and I get why that choice was made. However, if the rule were re-written slightly to say, “if you ask, you offer to pay while saying, ‘you can treat next time, or we could go Dutch,’” you leave the door open for a next time. And you leave the door open, if you are the woman, to not paying if you are the one suggesting the date — that is, you avoid setting up the notion that you subscribe to a feminist, egalitarian vision of relationship — one that is not compatible with the whole idea of this project (although I'm not sure that the producers of the movie would agree with that — and that's maybe an avoidance of theirs).
Since women do long to be pursued and, as Cronin points out, our society simply doesn’t support that model at the moment, it’s important that if a man is being asked, he doesn’t get the wrong idea about expectations going forward. What Cronin doesn’t say is that men don’t understand this about women — or are afraid to admit to understanding it — in large part because women have collectively, and to their unacknowledged grief, trained them out of any natural instinct to do it. Why should the man ask, and pay? Because he ought to be the pursuer, and by spending money is demonstrating to the woman that he can, and is willing to, support her if they should decide to marry. This is decisive for their future happiness, since marriage isn’t a sort of business arrangement. It's a sacred way to build a life together complementarily.
Saying “you can treat me next time” is important to answer the question of how the relationship moves forward from date to date and from level to level (the levels are explained in the movie, but the moving forward is not). This is something I might talk about more later.
- It struck me that in the interview after the main part of the film ended, Cronin made the excellent point that knowing how to ask people questions and have a give-and-take conversation is just good manners in society (don’t miss this interview at the end!). So I do think that the “Level 1 Date” could actually just be interpreted more broadly as a desirable interaction for any two people, not necessarily those who have romantic possibilities.
Mothers with young children are probably the only adults left on the planet who know how to say to each other, “Want to come over for a cup of coffee?” — simply because they have the pretext of getting their children together for playing. They are the only ones left who can pull it off without awkwardness.
Because we now email and text — but most of all, go on Facebook to relate to each other in groups — we have lost the art not only of dating but of just getting together with one friend of any description. So I would encourage the lucky mothers who have this privilege to encourage their husbands to stop for a quick beer with a friend after work once in a while, let’s meet up for an hour of conversation over tea, and let’s make a point of meeting a friend over a drink. And in general, let’s think about how to model and help our children be able to say to a friend, “want to get together for a chat?”
If we have more practice having real conversations, one on one, our children will too, and then when it’s a matter of a date, they won’t be so disadvantaged.
- Only at the very end of the interview does Cronin get into the role of friendship in romance, although throughout her main point is that one person needs to get to know another. I’d love to hear more from her on this topic.
I do think that if we were better at having friends in general and knowing what to do with them even for an hour, we’d be better at the kind of dating she’s describing, where you actually are trying to become romantically involved with someone you’ve actually come to know, and to come to know someone you consider romantic material.
- Our society has duped us into thinking that the goal for men and women is a sexual hookup, but the goal is marriage. The movie is good at identifying the first part and its problems, but doesn’t quite nail down the second part and its joys. That’s okay. It does a good enough job of indicating it, of leaving the question hanging out there — especially with the small segment with Chris’ 90-year-old mother (and do you realize this means she had him when she was 50? Fantastic!), a beautiful, funny, articulate, and happy lady whose life really seems to be an example of all one could hope for from romance, even if it was cut short by her husband’s passing. I wish they would do another documentary with, say, five people at various stages of marriage, with Chris’ mother front and center.
- I am still not sure how one signals to a potential romantic interest that one is committed to waiting for marriage to be intimate. To me, it's fatal to this whole concept of the “normal, simple” date to discuss “The Relationship” or “What I Want out of a Relationship” — on the Level 1 Date I would highly encourage not discussing such things at all. When you are getting together for coffee you just want to look outward at interesting things, conversationally, so that you get to know each other. You want to know simple facts about the person so that you have context, such as where she is originally from, how many siblings he has, what he studied in school, what she's reading now.
But obviously it's not good to invest a lot of time with someone who expects to jump in bed! But… people can change their shallow ideas simply because it's worth it to them to get to know this new person with such novel attitudes! So it does need to be known. Perhaps we need to bring back wearing a crucifix around the neck so that at least the other person has an early distant warning. What are your thoughts about this?
A reader asked in the comments to my previous post on the movie:
Leila, are there any print or online resources you’d recommend for parents or dating-age young people? Meeting my husband was pure serendipity. I think a lot about how we’re going to help our sons navigate that problem… and haven’t any good answers yet.
To answer, I will say that parents simply must realize that preparation for dating (that is to say, for the process by which one finds a spouse) is primarily remote — it starts very early on in life. We all understand very well that you don’t get a lovely ripe tomato from your garden a few days before you want one. We understand the importance of loosening the soil, preparing it with compost, leaving it fallow at the right times, letting even the frost do its work on its structure, carefully planting the seed at the right depth in the spring, and on and on.
The same is true in the family! If you do that hard work all along, you will find that when the time comes for your children to go out and date, your wisdom won’t fall on inhospitable ground.
Here are some links for you on the remote preparation part of things:
How families help their older children socialize with each other.Your friends and your community are your best chance to keep your children on the right path.
The moral development of the child. (This is the last of the series — they are all linked here.) Our young adults need courage and all the virtues, which are habits. How do you get these habits? It takes a lifetime, and people who love you.
Sex education and your child.Do not turn these important matters over to others. The real experts are the child's parents!
Solidarity and standards.Your friends are your allies, if you choose them well.
Trust in your own marriage, your child's best “curriculum.” Marriage is God's plan for raising moral beings in union with Him — and also for sheltering those who are in need. Marriage has its own grace!
And make friends with others — form a community over the years that will serve your children well.
Most importantly, pray together. I wrote a book to show you how… start by praying the Rosary together as a family!
Did you see the movie? What did you think? I'm sure other readers would love to know!
Kate says
Do you have any advice or thoughts about helping our single friends? I’m against the idea of a blind date, but am more than happy to try to facilitate people meeting – dinner parties, garden parties or bbqs, etc. But I know more single women than men, and the men here in the Young Adult group already have a hunted look among them (probably because the single women tend to think marriage and babies if a man even says hello at some event). It’s not really a good situation. Thank you for the write ups!
Leila says
Kate, I don’t have any great ideas. I like a lot of the comments below, and I can’t say that I personally have helped anyone get married among my friends!
Emily says
I guess….I don’t know.
I’m unmarried. I’m 36. I was engaged, I’ve dated a few guys long-term.
But the problem is, and maybe this is hook-up culture, but–men do not seem interested in women like me, who are older, who are faithful Catholics. I’ve tried Catholic match. I’ve tried online dating. But men, as a whole, will invite me out, and then I never hear from them again. And I want to be pursued. I don’t want to be calling *them*.
So I was sort of hoping this movie would have something to say to the people who want to be in a marriage but can’t find anyone. Because really, once you’re out of school–where does one meet people? That’s my problem. Not the hook up culture, although maybe that’s contributing to my problem. But this isn’t a movie I would watch because I’d just be throwing up my hands going, well, DUH! 😛 But then again I’m old and cranky. 😛
Margaret says
I haven’t seem the film, but it does seem like its purpose is to sell people on the idea of the old-fashioned date, not to help people who already agree with this but still haven’t found a spouse. I’m not sure what any movie could do for the latter, since what you need is not general advice, but an actual person to marry, and that can only come from some kind of personal connection.
My only thought is that I think a lot of the pain of being single at an older age is that it often means you live alone and are divorced from any kind of family life. I know a woman in her late thirties. She is single, and would like to be married, but in the meantime has spent her entire adult life living with a married sister and her children. This was a very common arrangement in the past, and allows a single person to still be part of a family, and be a second mother to her nieces and nephews in a way that wouldn’t be possible otherwise.
Leila says
Good points, Margaret.
Katharine says
I really wish that this was more common. I think it would alleviate a lot of the stress that isolated moms and isolated single women feel in our culture.
jadeddrifter says
I attempted to have an arrangement like this with one of my unmarried sisters (not in her thirties, early twenties, but she’s not in school and wishes she were married already). Unfortunately, my father really frowned on it. He seems to think I was “meddling” in my sister’s life and preventing her from becoming independent. My parents (and most of my siblings) have really bought into individualism: you should move out, make enough money to have your own place, own car and keep each sibling out of the other sibling’s business! Then, you are a healthy, successful person. I think my parents don’t get what real integrated, mutual support IS because they never saw it lived and certainly didn’t have it for themselves when we were all small.
Emily says
Good points, Margaret, thanks.
I’m fortunate enough that my brother and his (almost! next month!) wife live nearby….and my parents live five minutes away. So I have family life, and my friends who are married are abundant and nice people. It’s just that I, personally, am still single, and have no idea how to fix this. 😛 I do want to be involved with my brother and his wife as much as possible, especially once they have kids.
Keary McHugh says
The other day I was at a dinner at our parish and happened to sit next to a wonderful older woman. She is a lifelong member of our parish and had the most wonderful stories of parish life in “the old days.” There were dances, socials, and basketball games between the two local Catholic high schools, and sundry other social events and opportunities for mingling and wholesome fun. And as I listened to her wonderful stories, I was struck with a sense of profound loss–that in allowing them to slip away (or actively rejecting them), we had allowed something truly precious, and fundamentally human to disappear.
And I cannot help but think that those adults who foresaw the need for such outings had it right. Young people need such outlets– wholesome places to escort a young lady/be escorted to, opportunities to mix, and mingle, and yes, even flirt, in an innocent and cheerful sort of way. Places and events that are low pressure, without resorting to the club or having to spend a great deal, that are rooted in the context of the larger community. They certainly seemed to help guide young people to marriages in the past– my dinner companion told me that her sister and several friends all met their husbands at one or another of these parish sponsored events.
So I am wondering how we might reinstate something of this? Is such a thing even possible? Because one day soon my daughter, who is now 7, will be of age to need just these very kinds of things
Leila says
Yes, Keary, this is what the St. Greg’s Pockets are all about. Do look through that category and see how many suggestions we have. (Also the “restoring the culture” posts.)
I will say that there are simply fewer young people relative to older people now. Demographics have really done us in (that is, people’s choices not to have as many children!).
IF you can live near others who are also having children, and IF you can hang in there, you will see things getting better in your own community after 20-25 years.
That’s how demographics work. Wish someone had told our grandparents!
Katherine says
There are some musically talented young adults at my parish who periodically host swing and contra dances in the parish hall. The last one had 50-60 young adults at it! Granted, I live near a large metropolitan area, but this could still be fun with a smaller crowd. There was an instructor there to teach us the steps, since a lot of us had never done it before. There was plenty of confusion and missteps, but it was still so much fun! It felt like we were rebuilding the collective memory, literally step by step.
I think dances – with real music and real dance steps – are excellent training for dating, especially for young men to embrace the role of taking the lead. And for women to learn to be more gracious and chairtable. Anyone can say yes to a dance. If you don’t like your partner, the song is not going to last forever.
Leila says
Katherine, dances such as the ones you describe are truly so, so important! They are the secret to a real community!
methylethyl says
Like Kate, I really, really want to know how to help people who are looking for spouses. There is a basic logistical problem I haven’t seen addressed: among single adults looking for relationships, there are two “dating” pools: the pleasure pool (people not looking for anything permanent) and the marriage pool (self explanatory). In the pleasure pool, there are six men for every one woman. In the marriage pool, six women to every man. For women looking for husbands, this is obviously horrific. And there doesn’t seem to be a practical way of sorting out who’s in which market, without a significant time investment in a whole string of people who turn out to be looking for “nothing permanent”. You’d think men looking for wives would have an easier time of it, but… going by the single guys I know who are actively looking… nope. It’s really hard to meet people out there in real life. Online dating skews toward A) men, and B) the pleasure market.
R H says
I think the best thing married folks can do to help singles (of all ages) is to be friends with them – most marriages (and jobs, incidentally), come from being introduced to a friend of a friend. Anytime we have single family members or friends from out of town – we should be throwing parties to introduce them to our local friends. It sounds funny, but it’s one way parties build the culture. There’s a certain vouching that goes with it, to, a first level of vetting on the person’s character, that could only be helpful to someone seeking marriage.
And, where possible, sharing our homes as folks used to do.I had a close friend in college who lived with a family and did a modest amount of housework/childcare in return for rent. She much preferred it to living in the dorm. Very counter-cultural, of course, to propose living with someone not in your nuclear family.
I would also love to hear from singles how they want to be included (maybe not everyone enjoys parites with 50+ kids…) – sometimes in our efforts to be vocal for family we forget those called to be single for a long time, even for life. And their willingness to do so is a beautiful witness – no settling for anything less than the real deal.
Jenny says
I don’t think it sounds funny at all, but it does remind me of several plots in old sitcoms. And I don’t think that is a bad thing. It is a great way to go about bringing people together and brings with it a level of security that is lacking in internet dating.
Emily says
I have some wonderful married friends who invite me to their parties–they’re very social, they invite tons of people. The problem is that no one talks to me. I end up playing with the kids, which, again, is fine, and something I enjoy, but since I’m not married and don’t have kids, there’s no discussion that doesn’t involve marriage and kids! The men are a little better at this. 🙂 So, my suggestion would be, to make the talk not exclusive to just babies and house stuff and marriage. Make it more general! (And I know that’s their reality. And I know they want to talk about that stuff! I’m just saying it’s not entirely…a topic of general interest?)
Also, the problem with dances–how many of us actually enjoyed dances in high school? Also, I’m a klutz. So the idea of standing around a la Mary Bennet at a dance repels me. My parish does offer these, coincidentally. So maybe I just need to get over my issues with it and go?
mrsnightskyre says
I appreciate your desire to not simply talk about children and housekeeping – but for young stay at home mothers, this is often the entirety of their life in the season of young children. I found myself talking birth stories with a young doctor friend (unmarried) and a young male friend (also unmarried)… and kicked myself afterwards. Of course I could talk about it for hours – I’ve given birth three times! I left the two of them no room in the conversation.
It’s hard to keep up with life outside the home when you’re in the season of young children. But I’m seeing some relief now, in part due to being able to take up hobbies again that I can do partially with my children, but that aren’t *about* my children.
Thera says
How to signal that you are not looking to hook up? I’d agree that talking about it would not be consistent with a casual date. I do have a few ideas that could work for some.
What if after going out for coffee once or twice the woman invited the man to her meet her family? Ideally in an informal setting like a back yard bbq, or to go see a movie with her parents or some others. This seems to me like it would likely put off anyone who was opposed to family and genuine community.
Also there are probably plenty of ways to loosely bring up questions of morality in the context of cultural things and political issues. By disapproving of actions in a movie, or social movement for example. These more general conversations can be tricky, but if the daters aren’t able to even gently touch these subjects, we’ll it doesn’t seem likely they will have much of a future together.
Lastly, all this dating should be happening in a community that should have its own standards and ways of making them known. I realize that not everyone is in a community like this, but working to develop them is important. In a sense it is both the goal of marriage and the context from which marriage can grow.
Tia says
online dating is pretty terrible but one of the few things that it can do is allow you to state that plainly in a profile — if people are at least somewhat honest they won’t pursue someone for a casual hookup who is only interested in marriage-inclined people.
Erika says
I met a guy in Starbucks once and enjoyed chatting with him, so when we started talking about meeting for coffee the next weekend, I casually let the word ‘church’ slip, probably regarding my typical weekly activities. Never met the guy again. I figured if he really found me interesting, then if he wasn’t a Christian, he should at least be able to put off judgement until he knew me a little more, and if it did scare him off, then he wasn’t worth wasting my time on!
Thera says
That sounds like it was effective! if a little disappointing.
Leila says
Thera, I think your ideas are spot on. Perfect.
LPatter says
I will just say that (sadly) in our current culture, I don’t think it’s safe not to be explicitly clear about this within the first 2 (or, MAX, 3) casual dates if the person is someone who doesn’t know you from Adam (Eve!). Or, at least, explicitly clear about current activities (“it’s my policy only to date in public for the first month or two, etc”) to buy time for deeper getting to know you and moral conversation.
jadeddrifter says
“But… people can change their shallow ideas simply because it’s worth it to them to get to know this new person with such novel attitudes!… What are your thoughts about this?”
I think the crucifix idea is a good indicator that a person might be waiting for marriage. I’ve worn a miraculous medal for years. While it’s not as familiar to non-Catholics, most people are intrigued enough to ask who is on your necklace. When you say, “The Virgin Mary” most guys take the hint. While it’s not a guarantee that the person wearing said medal is orthodox, it can be helpful.
Ten years ago, when I was dating, I often stated on a first date that I was waiting for marriage. I attended a state college, so even if your date was allegedly Catholic, you had no real clue where they stood on the issue. So I did talk about it…a lot. It was the easiest way to keep most of the boys away who were after only one thing…there were also the ones that I foolishly dated because they said they were willing to wait until I felt “comfortable” but, of course, they did not mean “marriage.” If there are any single ladies reading this, stay away from the guys who say they are willing to wait “as long as you want.” Spare yourself the pain.
But, back to those who “change their shallow ideas simply because it’s worth it to them to get to know this new person” –my husband was one of those guys! Be cautious and pray much, but these sorts of guys ARE out there. If you tell a guy, in plain English, “I’m not interested in having sex until after marriage because I believe marriage is a sacrament” and he still wants to pursue you for one or two honest dates, then I say go for it–but do follow all of Leila’s rules for dating. They are incomparably wise.
Emily says
Jade–I do this. 🙂 In fact, my first date in college (to the man I almost married) began with “I will not have sex with you.” He looked a little taken aback (I was a blunt 18 year old), but he said, “I wasn’t going to ask you that!” So yes, this is great way to weed them out, if you make it clear. And it can be disappointing, when they seem like nice men and then poof–not so much. Oh well.
Leila says
Jadedrifter — thanks 🙂
I think men need to figure out how to act with honor, but it’s just simply the case that encountering a virtuous woman is their best shot at living up to a high standard!
Camille Gabel says
I’m flabbergasted. They don’t know how to date? While premarital sex and chastity were definite topics of instruction when I was dating, HOW to date certainly was not. We knew how to do that just fine! My children are younger but dating is only a few years away (although I currently have them convinced that 21 is a good age to start). We began the chastity instruction years ago but teaching them how to date… I had no idea!
Jenny says
I just assumed people were still dating and marrying like usual, so this is news to me. I have an interesting perspective since my in-laws are Muslim and quite active in our local Islamic community. My mother-in-law has worked as a “matchmaker” of sorts for at least two couples. Not in a serious way, though. She has told me that ladies will often mention to the married women that they are looking for husbands, and then the ladies will mention it to their husbands or vice versa.
BridgetAnn says
Speaking as one who was single throughout her twenties- engaged a few days before my 30th birthday 🙂 – I believe there is another component hindering healthy relationships within Catholic circles. Individuals who wholeheartedly reject the hook-up culture but for some reason or another (commitment anxiety? immaturity? fuzzy understanding of male/female relationships?) create knowingly or unknowingly a “hanging out” culture. Lots of hanging out with members of the opposite sex- “we’re friends!” – without true dating ordered to exclusive relationships and, eventually, marriage.
I’m not sure if I can express myself clearly, but anyone who has experienced it will understand the frustration. I don’t agree with everything on their blog, but the “Art of Manliness” once had a post titled: “Stop hanging out with women and start dating them.” Exactly!
Its hard to know, as a woman, how to navigate such a scene. How to gently initiate without pursuing. How to provide opportunities to “get together” but not contribute to the “hanging out” scene. My mom said that part of the reason my dad was interested in dating her was because he was tired of hanging out with his guy friends. Because not that long ago, girls “hung out” with girls and guys with guys! If women provide/allow that environment in mixed company- men to enjoy the pleasure of a woman’s company & her uniquely feminine contributions to social interactions- then that is one less thing that a man is lacking which he would be prompted to seek in marriage…
All of Aunt Leila’s advice applies to this situation as well, just wanted to add my 2 cents of experience into the mix 🙂
Annie says
Yes, the “hanging out” culture was strong within my group of friends in college. My first friends to break out of this, towards courtship and marriage, did go on walks early in their friendship, to vouch for the helpfulness of that approach!
When I was in grad school, the priest in charge of the Catholic chaplaincy was passionate about this issue and strongly encouraged the men to take women on dates, for young people to casually date multiple people as opposed to committing to early, and other measures in favor of healthy friendships and relationships. And you could totally see the fruits of this attitude in the community!
Theresa says
I am so glad to read your post on this topic…Thank you, again, Leila! I have 2 beautiful nieces, ages 29 and 33….who also “don’t date” (did you mention Tinder? Horrors!). At any rate, I pray and pray for them…but I am sure they are unconsciously contributing to their own situation….with low self-esteem, low expectations…and, sadly, an inability to view a man as a potential spouse,,,,they just want a boyfriend …I didn’t find my Prince until my 40s…but never gave up. I finally got wise after wasting tremendous time on those “guy friends” mentioned here, and the dance of waiting to see if we would eventually date…only to watch the clock tick. Finally, after a major illness and a pilgrimage to Medjugorge (“Hey, God, is this going to happen for me?”)…I met my dear husband one month later, who was on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land at the exact same time I was…for the exact same reason! God is in all things! He telephoned me the night after our first date and has telephoned me every day since!! What a pest!! ha ha….He’s my Prince Charming…I feel blessed and truly grateful…very aware of the need for prayers for my nieces and all single women, really. Gee, if I knew then what I know now…but my lovely nieces are growing despondent….let’s hope they don’t marry themselves (yes, this is a real thing out there..)Thank you, Leila…let’s pray for all of them…Someone must have prayed for me…
Carol Kennedy says
Yes! to the comments about the “hanging out” culture in Catholic (and other Christian) circles. I too was single through my twenties and into my late thirties (and, incidentally, met my husband online–Catholic site). However, now that my kids have just hit the “teen” years I can see that the hanging out culture is probably cemented early on in youth group. All “teen” activities at the local parishes are co-ed. I think my young man needs to hang out with other young men and be mentored by mature Catholic men. And the same on the girl side. This is especially helpful in the years of raging hormones, and in our current culture in which gender is attacked (not even to mention the iphone/social networking culture that limits real interaction with others and leaves all sorts of tempting stuff at every kids’ fingertips). I don’t mean to completely segregate the boys from the girls as if there is something evil about mixing together, just to give them a chance to grow into young men and young women, and then in that context then can learn to “date”—-dances in which they are encouraged to “ask a girl to dance” are great ways to learn these skills. I am sure there are many other social opportunities in which they can mix—didn’t we used to call them mixers?
Leila says
There’s a balance, because it’s definitely true that too much hanging out with both sexes is not healthy — I really like these points about not getting too used to a noncommittal interaction with the opposite sex.
But on the other hand, having a small group of friends who do things together can help the individuals observe each other and learn about each others’ characters — and perhaps find that there is one special person to whom one is attracted, and then courtship can follow naturally.
Maybe a good role for the married folk is to help the singles strike the balance.
mrsnightskyre says
For me, “hanging out” did move smoothly into dating; sort of. I was so happy in college to find like-minded people (mostly boys) to spend time with, since my childhood and teenage years had been intensely isolating. At that time, I didn’t enjoy spending much time in groups of girls, and one of the attractions of the engineering college I attended was that the people didn’t treat me differently because I was a girl.
I certainly made romantic mis-steps along the way, and the hang-out culture probably contributed to that, but the major cause of my problems was mostly my loneliness and (surprise, surprise) ignorance of what “dating” should look like.
That said, I met my husband through mutual friends later in college, and we did spend a lot of time in group settings, as well as “hanging out” (mostly studying together) before we realized we were becoming romantically involved. 😀
Jennifer says
My husband and I were introduced by a common acquaintance. She had worked with him years before and was working with me when she asked if I was dating anyone. I reluctantly gave my email address. My husband emailed me about himself and I gave him my phone number. He called me and we talked for a couple hours, planning to meet the next weekend. That was in 2000. We married the following summer. I think a key part was that we were both on the same wavelength about not just “dating” but wanting something real. I didn’t know I was ready for marriage until I met him. It was a long distance relationship so we spent lots of time talking on the phone. I think talking is key. You can better get to know someone.
Anyways, maybe we married folks should be more alert to the singles amongst us and know them better so we can do our part in matchmaking- that is connecting compatible men and women. I will add that prior to this introduction, I had been on a few blind dates which left me questioning how well the people who set them up knew me. And I had decided to swear off dating for good. Then the next week I met my husband. 😉
Elaine says
Here is a beautiful French Canadian song that speaks to these issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvcEP0EjqIc
Sample: “Your great great grandmother had 14 children,…they knew how to dance…your mother didn’t want any,…sometimes at night you dream of a table surrounded by children”
(here is a rather inadequate translation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2V3NrvThlg Don’t give up after the first stanza–it gets better. [Note “collect black pennies” means “pinch pennies”.]
kellymaya says
As to men getting together, my friend and I set up our husbands to go out fff breakfast last Saturday. They enjoyed it.
My oldest two children are boys aged 9 and 11 and are mostly in the phase we will never get married bc girls are weird phase. But they do ask questions about the whole process. One told us he is afraid to ask a girl to marry him bc she might say no. We started explaining you usually have gone on dates and both like each other by that point. He didnt know about dating and was so interested in our experience. Our first date was bowling.
Diana says
Thank you so much for addressing this issue. I enjoyed your thoughts, and also the comments of all the ladies who jotted down their thoughts as well. Please keep articles on this theme coming! Our eldest is twelve, and I am sorta-kinda panicking over the approaching teen years and also the years of young adulthood. In our culture nowadays, finding someone to marry and getting to marriage with one’s purity intact are not the simple matters that they were in times past.
Thanks again!